Topic: How do you kill a dragon?

[rdanhenry]

Strike would not be very useful against a dragon, though. It's only the loophole where you build a Phantasm for a huge concussion hit multiplier that it is useful against a dragon. Especially since you can't crit with it against a SL AT-20 target.

[yammahoper]

And if the dragon percieves the illusion/phantasm for what it is, it will be dispelled.  Nope, illusions are not how you fight a dragon.

[providence13]

Strike can attack a dragon...but honestly, who in their right mind attacks a dragon with the armored fist table?

Especially since you can't crit with it against a SL AT-20 target.

Doh! You're right.

Are you sure about the Dispelling bit. yammahoper? I don't think that is RM. But I've been wrong before.

[Marc R]

Even if you know it's an illusion, it's still there, you need to dispell it to get rid of it. . .they are E spells, the light, sound, smell, feel, taste, other are actually present, created out of magic. . .Even if you are also an illusionist, and I explain exactly how I am creating a phantasm of a boulder to crush your head, then slowly cast the spell (which you also have) so you know exactly what's happening. . .it'll still crush your head if it lands on you.

[kevinmccollum]

There is no perceiving an illusion so it is dispelled. You need to get rid of the feel sense. I'm still having issues with a spell that can't support the weight of a man killing a dragon with one swat.

[providence13]

"I crush your head!"
(That may be a little dated.)

 

[Marc R]

(Kids in the hall!)

[providence13]

I'm still having issues with a spell that can't support the weight of a man

Doesn't each "feel" aspect support 5 lbs, or so?
(I'm not sure where I got that)
After 9 "x2 damage"s it might add up.

[yammahoper]

x9 damage on a Phantasm X would attack with a Ma St Degree I.  x9 damage and a max A crit.  Yipee.

Illusions are E.  But an area cancel essence will take it down without having to go through the touch effects.  Besides, even if touch picks are used up, the illusion remains for all thats worth until the duration of the spell expires, unless canceled by the illusionist.

All in all, all I can say is whatever.  Go ahead and take on the dragon with your illusionist.  I'll gladly help you roll a new PC before the next session.

[providence13]

Go ahead and take on the dragon with your illusionist.  I'll gladly help you roll a new PC before the next session.

That is probably what would happen in this scenario. I don't disagree with you on that at all. I'm just trying to make sure my understanding of these concepts agree with the rules. Just because players plan out the "perfect caper", it has nothing to do with how it goes down. This might look like it'd do the trick on paper and is kinda funny to discuss, dragons will have thought of defenses for every "easy" kill the players imagine.

[Marc R]

The problem lies with them being both nasty in almost every vector, but also smart.

Like, I once killed a t-rex in play, that had eaten another PC. . .by taking the remaining leg of the PC, cutting it open, stuffing it with poisoned mushrooms, then throwing it to the t-rex from a ledge it couldn't reach. . . .

The usual ways to kill big nasty things, like that, just don't work so well when the big nasty thing is smart.

[markc]

Why kill the dragon?
Why not just recruit him as a new NPC?


MDC

[Dark Schneider]

I think there is a mistake, a Phantasm is only to add senses to the Strike, not to modify the damage, at least on my book, on Strike spell desc. it says:
"...equivalent of a fist strike (the attack is not visible unless combined with visual sense through Illusion or Phantasm)."

Where do you extract that you can use the multiply effect of Phantasm applying it to damage?, in the Phantasm or Illusion spell description there is no reference to that effect, we can read the options:

"a) additional sense; b) double duration; c) double range; d) double radius."

Where is the damage option?, you can create a rock with radius image x20, but it is only an illusion as it damage is the basic one.

I think illusionist users are wrong about the profession purpose and trying to find a cheat where there is not, and they want to combat throwing huge rocks against opponents, but as we can see it continues being a simple strike attack. Illusionist is not a combat profession, you need to use open/closed essence spells for that.

[Grimburgoth]

I just don't understand all the fuss about killing a dragon. If you play by the rules of the books dragons will go down hard against a good setup level 10+ company.

The illusionist being one of the easiest ways to do it. The Phantasm X spell (level 20) should be sufficient. It will give x512 damage, so you only need to score an 88 on the MA table to do 1024 damage.

Rulings about the damage can be found in the Main Rulebook on PG 206-207.

Yes the dragon has some defense, but things like a cancel essence spell or something similar are useless. They require concentration to keep up, so when it defends against spells it cannot fight in melee combat. 

The only real threat from a dragon comes from the Spirit mastery list as this has instant spells which can be killing (Word of Death in combination with Mass Word). These spells do have a limited range of 50’ so they can be circumvented. The melee and breath attacks of a dragon are just too weak to even be a threat against a good fighter.

Other simple ways to kill a dragon have already been posted on this thread. But I find the dragon slaying bow approach one of the best.(Creatures and monsters PG 40) Bow attacks are the simplest way to take out a dragon with just physical attacks. And in combination with something like a rune of flight (Arcane Companion, Blade runes) you can attack a dragon from as far as 1600’ away. With only minor penalties of course (Eye of the Hawk talent)

Another option is to go the summoning route using the Summoner profession or the Evil Essence list Entity summons and just keep throwing demons at the dragon.

In the end it comes down to numbers. A dragon is alone and therefore hampered by the game system. (Only one spell each round, divide its parry etc) If you don’t beef up the dragon it will go down.

[yammahoper]

you have made a common mistake on applying multipliers to damage.  applying four multiples results in x5 damage, not x16.

[Grimburgoth]

you have made a common mistake on applying multipliers to damage.  applying four multiples results in x5 damage, not x16.

I am aware that it is a common house rule, but the book specifically specifies something else:

(e.g., if two options are used to increase the “size” to a 40' radius,
the attack’s concussion hit damage is four times normal).

So if 2 options are 4 times the damage and not 3 times. 3 options must be 8 times.

[rdanhenry]

I just don't understand all the fuss about killing a dragon. If you play by the rules of the books dragons will go down hard against a good setup level 10+ company.

The illusionist being one of the easiest ways to do it. The Phantasm X spell (level 20) should be sufficient. It will give x512 damage, so you only need to score an 88 on the MA table to do 1024 damage.

Sure, if you get the chance to use it (and the dragon doesn't successfully attack the illusion first, eliminating the only Feel component you added, since you used all the other options to assure max. damage potential). Not to mention that if the dragon recognizes the trick and casts Reverse Spell II, that can put an end to your illusionist right there.

Yes the dragon has some defense, but things like a cancel essence spell or something similar are useless. They require concentration to keep up, so when it defends against spells it cannot fight in melee combat.

True, the Dispelling Ways are mostly just to take down all the buffs on a prepared party. Once spell-casters are identified, Unessence, Unmentalism, and Unchanneling can be tactically powerful. Spell Reins is more generally useful for defensive spell-casting (and since nearly the entire list is instantaneous spells, they can be used while attacking). 

The only real threat from a dragon comes from the Spirit mastery list as this has instant spells which can be killing (Word of Death in combination with Mass Word). These spells do have a limited range of 50’ so they can be circumvented. The melee and breath attacks of a dragon are just too weak to even be a threat against a good fighter.

The dragon has several attacks, though. If it goes one-on-one with a fighter, it has the same advantage as a group. The breath weapon should not be underestimated. As noted, protective spells can be dispelled by the dragon, and elemental area attacks offer limited defensive options. Shields will help, but then you're stuck with trying to hurt a dragon with a one-handed weapon. Not to mention the possible side-effects of the dragon's breath weapon.

A dragon is alone and therefore hampered by the game system.

This is the kind of assumption that will get you killed. Even as written, dragons may readily be found with a mate, and sometimes otherwise not alone.

[pastaav]

The illusionist being one of the easiest ways to do it. The Phantasm X spell (level 20) should be sufficient. It will give x512 damage, so you only need to score an 88 on the MA table to do 1024 damage.

Have you any player that has succeeded with such an attack against a dragon?

The reason I don't have a problem with the size increase to increase damage is that this approach is multiround action to execute and that phantasm will be trivial to spot for the dragon. It's much harder to fool somebody with an large object than a small one. In a typical dragon cave the space will make it near impossible to place such a large illusion without making it painfully obvious you are fighting a illusion. When the dragon knows it is fighting an illusion it can either strike the phantasm to remove the feel, simply block the attack with its OB that is probably comparable to the Illusionsts, take out the illusionist or dispell the phantasm.

Going further...all mytos I know about has dragon with superior senses, any phantasm that does not provide also smell and sound would be a automatic discovery for the dragon. So the Illusionist that is casting the phantasm need to use one option for smell, one option for sound and one option for feel so he actually can make an attack.

That leaves six options to be used for size increase (it can also be argued if the Illusionist should want to be within 100' from the dragon or if increased range is also essential). The illusionist can make one attack with x64 damage. Against AT20 the strike spell can at most achieve at most 4 concussion hits. That gives 256 concussion hits in damage, a smaller dragon with lesser AT and few hits might go down by that. Larger dragons will barely care about it. To sum up...I am not too impressed by this "safe" strategy to kill dragons.

[Dark Schneider]

The illusionist being one of the easiest ways to do it. The Phantasm X spell (level 20) should be sufficient. It will give x512 damage, so you only need to score an 88 on the MA table to do 1024 damage.

Rulings about the damage can be found in the Main Rulebook on PG 206-207.

I found it, in my RMFRP book are in the Spell Law book at page 98.

Well, I now understand why this sounds rare to me, we begin to play with RM2 which no had this rule of damage, and habit is strong so we forgot it.

But, dragons apart, I should say that this rule sounds bad for me, with this you can easily kill a strong fighter or any other normal creature with only 1 hit!, who needs criticals if you can deplete 150-200HP per hit easily?. Another "point" is that illusionist only needs to develop 1 directed spell skill, the phantasm one, so it can be maximized easily with 2 ranks/lvl and bonus to that specific skill.

How can exists a rule that multiplies damage by itself instead use the sum?, I am sure there is the only one of this type on all RM books, and IMO it is unbalanced.

I really don't understand how a profession of type "trick" can be converted to one of the more powerfull in combat only with 1 spell and 1 skill (phantasm and its DS). You need high level, but other professions (spell users included) has no cheats like this one even at high level.

IMO a better solution would had been split that damage between multiple attacks, this is, use the sum as multiplier for damage but allows to do more attacks, and if you think about it it is more realistic, you can create a troll phantasm, and attack with good damage (x5, x6, x8...) but in multiple rounds simulating a real combat, not only in 1 hit and then the phantasm feel is out.

Those damages x64, x256, x512 ...sound very rare to me (we are using RM and not AD&D right?) and I think those illusion effects should be revised to create more realistic situations.

[providence13]

I allow Directed Spell with Strike. It specifically says so in the spell description.
But the more I think about it.... I don't like Directed Spell with Phantasm.