Topic: Loremaster

[DonMoody]

Now to come back to the crowns: in the Third Era everything what has to do with the Second Era is myth!

Just staying with the topic of the crowns, this is clearly incorrect.

So I do not believe this is accurate.

"Let's keep in mind that technology has advanced tremendously in the last 400 years or so since the renaissance, but fairly sophisticated civilizations like China and Egypt date back several thousand years."

This claim is also suspect.
Yes, civilization (as currently defined) has been around (on Earth) for millennia.
But Egypt is not, technically, except in the form of 'people have lived here in an unbroken line of years' a continuous civilization.
Similar arguments can be made for China.

Also, one can make a very strong argument that technological advances were stymied, amongst other forces, by social institutions (e.g. it is only *very* recently that the organization that condemned & stymied Galileo acknowledged that Galileo was correct; and even to this day, that organization is unapologetic for its treatment of Galileo) and that we could *easily* be even further advanced that we are.

Finally, one of the main factors that allow a society to advance (in any area) is the percentage of the population whose labor is not needed for feeding the entire populace.
This - smaller and smaller percentage of the population needed to feed all of the populace - was a driving force in the industrial revolution.
Similarly, reduction in infant/children death rates (i.e. more individuals living to adulthood) is another main factor that allows a society to advance.

One would expect that magic would give a boost in both of those areas.

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

I think the discussion is now not so much about simple or complex, it?s more about what are the important facets over the flow of time defining the organisation in ~6050 TE.

I thought it was pretty well established that there were some individuals who were openly acknowledged as 'loremasters' where as most (the vast majority?) of those in the organization were unknown (or unknowing - in the case of information networks set up with many of the individual informants/organizations unaware of the loremaster connection).

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

I think it?s important to keep the second and the third era seperated [sic] in the discussion.

Yes, the Third Era started with a 'dark age' but its effects varied widely.

For example:
Jaiman fares better than most lands of the hemisphere, perhaps because of the crowns? even though only Rhakhaan?s rulers wear them with regularity.

Also:
Third Era year 75: The gates of Norek are opened.

"The magical crowns" of Jaiman are well known in Jaiman and outside of Jaiman (e.g. there seems to be a fair amount of awareness in Emer).

This also appears to be the case not only in the Second Era but also in the Third Era.

Yes, a lot changed between the Second and Third Eras.
But we should not pretend there was no continuity or that the only continuity was in secret societies or groups.

DonMoody

[Walt]

"Let's keep in mind that technology has advanced tremendously in the last 400 years or so since the renaissance, but fairly sophisticated civilizations like China and Egypt date back several thousand years."
This claim is also suspect.
Yes, civilization (as currently defined) has been around (on Earth) for millennia.
But Egypt is not, technically, except in the form of 'people have lived here in an unbroken line of years' a continuous civilization.
Similar arguments can be made for China.

Like I wrote, you must go on in this technology vs time discussion with Terry. I have my own problems with the long time span, but I value his opinion and his interpretation of his own world.

[Walt]

For example, I was under the impression that the crowns of Jaiman confirmed legitimacy.
That is, you could claim whatever you wanted and have as much support as you could get but if you tried to be a king of one of the six realms without ever - in a very public ceremony - putting on the crown (regardless of who placed it on your head), there would always be doubts.
And if you did put the crown on and your mind was turned to mush, everyone pointed and said 'false pretender' (and said you got what you deserved for being a false pretender).

And now imagine a situation where the king dies without succesors. But he has to sisters with kids. The firstborn of the older sister died, but there is a second son. But there is first son of the younger sister, who?s birth was after the birth of the dead boy of the first boy.

This was an intersting examplde from a friend, who did her doctorate in Medivial History while we were discussing the Crowns of Jaiman. (she had also some other questions, like how do the crowns confirm legitimacy? A pure technical question - I answerd it the easy was, some unknown mixture of high tech and magic. But interesting question). So in the above described situation it?s not quite clear who has got the right as succesor. And I don?t expect that after in a very public ceremony the attendants are happy if their favorite is a drooling idiot afterwards!

One possible solution: fake crowns. (there are others) And now imagine a situation including fake crowns, developing over some thousand years and in the middle a 400 years long war, destroying civilisation.

No, I don?t think that informations about the crowns is easily available and reliable. There are rmuors, myths, habits, traditions, all this developing over the length of many thousand years. Sages, Loremasters, Priest Arnak weaving a gigantic net of truths, lies and half-truths.

But one think is, in my opinion clear: there will be a vaguely know link between the crowns and the Loremasters. And if their is an accident like described above, all their political enemies will rush in like hyenas, and exploit this mistake for their political goals: to discredit the Loremasters.

And I think that?s quite the way like the Priests of Arnak and Logarlis in his disguise as White Magician influenced the potential Kings - raising fears in potential succesors.

[markc]

 I know very little about SW but maybe the crowns cam be retuned to a new gentic profile if a Lormaster crowns a new king. Or as you say there are a few fake crowns and the real ones are kept under lock and key.
Just some thoughts.
MDC

[Walt]

Sometimes it?s the best not to know the details. So you can look at a topic from a more overall point of view. Thanks for yout thoughts Markc

[DonMoody]

And if their [sic] is an accident like described above, all their political enemies will rush in like hyenas, and exploit this mistake for their political goals: to discredit the Loremasters.

I think the phrase "an accident like described above" is a mischaracterization.
That is, such an incident would obviously not be taken as an accident but as a denial of that individual's right to rule.

Given that the crowns are the known [by all, especially the populace; i.e those being ruled over] accepted method of confirming legitimacy (which they are unless you are taking a different route in your game), if the 'drooling idiot' syndrome happened, then there would be quick, widespread acknowledgment that the [now] 'drooling idiot' was never a legitimate heir.

In the case of the sister's son's, it would be widely accepted that those (previously believed to be untrue) rumours about the princess' mother having cuckolded the recently passed king's father were obviously true (at least, now, in retrospect).
If the princess was a true child of the king, then her son would be a true heir.
Obviously, the son was not a true heir so therefore the princess could not have been a true heir and thus her mother must have had an affair.

Remember, especially in Jaiman, you are dealing with very powerful magics that are legendary in power and 'duration of existence' (i.e. these are from *before* that dark age which was millennia ago).

As for the fake crown, interesting idea (at least one of the original crowns was destroyed remember) but I think the loremasters would quickly put an end to that.
Or at least, they would try to retrieve the real one  and have it show up at an inconvenient time so the populace would see two crowns and wonder "who's zoomin' who".

DonMoody

[Walt]

Does anybody still has an idea who the Crown Concept can be used against the Loremasters? Or how would be the hole structure and the ceremonies involved develop?
After all this thousands of years, nobody knows any more who is the rightful king, the Crowns regarded as some medium to enslave the society. But probably it?s still not known that even with the rightful succesor the crown changes the mind set of the king. That?s for sure classified Loremaster inner council knowledge.
What possibilties do the Loremasters have to avoid the "Coronation desaster"? Perhaps the have a fundamental subgroup like the Bene Gesserit of Dune?
Who would be the cognition of such a legendary artifact, rendering seemingly out of chance fitfull succesors to drooling idiots? It has something evil attached, putting the Priest of Arnak or the White Magician in a big advantage.

[Lomli]

While the crowns are Legendary Artifacts, I feel the "coronation ceremony" probably grew up around the Loremasters providing guidance in an attunement exercise. If DNA was tied into the process there could never be another ruling family unless they had some tie to the original king given the crown. Then if the king had multiple heirs they would all be qualified to don the crown. The whole affair would be rather messy and something the Loremasters would try to avoid at all costs. So, I feel the crowns while Legendary require attunement and hence the reason for the Loremasters in attendance at the coronation ceremonies. Just read Kalen's experience with attuning to the phoenix pendant. I can only image the Crown being much more tricky.
 
Anything including the crowns can be perverted against the original intent. Lorgalis, the White Magician, is looking for the forge facility where the crowns are controlled from. Those who control the crowns controls all of Jaiman. Then Lorgalis would not fear anyone wearing the crowns.

Kalen's attunement : http://homepage.mac.com/terbob/kalen/Kalen_26.html

[DonMoody]

After all this thousands of years, nobody knows any more who is the rightful king, the Crowns regarded as some medium to enslave the society.

I do not remember seeing anything quite like this in the SW material I've read.
Where does this come from?

I am not sure I understood this comment:

Who would be the cognition of such a legendary artifact, rendering seemingly out of chance fitfull [sic] succesors [sic] to drooling idiots?

I thought it was accepted that if donning a crown turned someone into a "drooling idiot" then (at least in hindsight) everyone acknowledged that the person was not a "fitful successor" (and all the ranting and raving by a few who try to claim otherwise would be insufficient to counter such an obvious truth that the individual was obviously a false pretender and got what they deserved).

DonMoody

[DonMoody]

While the crowns are Legendary Artifacts, I feel the "coronation ceremony" probably grew up around the Loremasters providing guidance in an attunement exercise.

Good point.

It also appears there are multiple levels of attunement for each Jaiman crown, pendant or sword.

DonMoody

[Walt]

After all this thousands of years, nobody knows any more who is the rightful king, the Crowns regarded as some medium to enslave the society.

I do not remember seeing anything quite like this in the SW material I've read.
Where does this come from?

This comes from reading Shadow World while using your own imagination, intellect and creativity. Many thousand years ago, propably after a most interesting discussion!, it was decided to use the crowns as means to stop Logarlis. Already the basic idea, to rob somebody of his own will, speaks for the supremacy claim from the immortal Elvish races versus this half-barbaric mannish tribes.
But slowly this short-lived mannish childs are realizing that they are dominated through this "tainted gift", loosing theit control over themself, being Elvish and Loremaster puppets. Be it they realized it on their own, be it that the Priests of Arnak gave them some hints. All this happened between 5000 and 6000 SE.
How do you think is the attitude of a monarch towards an organisation trying to make him mind-slave of a crown? The Priests of Arnak didn?t had much to do to miscredit the Loremasters - they did already on their own.
Than the big-bang, ~ 400 years of War, many of the former cultures reduced to a semi-barbaric state, most royal artifacts lost or hidden. Some small pockets, where the civilisation survived. For the Loremasters also the chance to cover up their big mistake with the crowns. Only the Rhakhaan Empire and Urulan surving. The White Magician starts his work 1500 TE, the Priest of Arnak come in play again from ~2000 TE. The second age glorified but also a deep mistrust against this Loremaster organisation, trying to enslave kings. And bad news live mostly longer than good news). They musn?t do to much, only lay out the obviously: from 6 Kingdoms only the Elven one survived! And the Rhakhaan Empire, but this because of the strength and independece of the Zori race. The Elve used the Loremasters to enslave the human races! I wouldn?t like it, no way.
You think the few official Loremasters are perceived from each and every regent as benevolent allies? Not at all, often they will be percieved  as some secret cabal, with their own agenda, already trying once to conquer Jaiman through the crowns.

[Cormac Doyle]

Without meaning to step on anyone's toes ...

The crowns were designed to enforce a level of stability between the realms in Jaiman.

As such, the "legitimacy" they confirm (and indirectly confer) is not based on any weird concept of genetics/hereditary right ... it is based on an assessment of the individual's ability to maintain the stability of the realm.

However, the crowns are more than simply a passive force ... they actively change the thought-patterns of the wearer to reinforce this instinct to preserve the realm and it's defined borders.

Thus the crowns will tolerate any mind that they can mold into a reliable guardian for the realm ...

This is why it is critical that the Loremasters remain involved - they must ensure that the populace accept the "Right to Rule" of the wearer of the crown ... because otherwise the resulting civil war would be totally counter-productive.

[Walt]

Most interesting...

Do I understand you correct Cormac, that you are promoting that the crowns primarly somehow evaluate the pure ability of the potential guardian of the realm, with not to much or even none assesment of the genetics/hereditary birth-rights?

[Cormac Doyle]

Blood lines can get messed up and precedence is not a genetic trait (e.g. from a genetic point of view, theres no difference between the first born son and the seventh)

Additionally - if the current king dies childless, there could be any number of cousins, nephews, brothers, uncles (and that assumes the ruler has to be male).

A simple assessment of genetics would not reliable "chose" a single individual from that ...

Add to that - the crowns have to compensate for the comp0lete loss of one genetic line and the introduction of another ... thus I would say that they really don't care about any overt level of heredity ... they simply look for a (reasonably) strong person who would make a good leader, but whop can be molded and encouraged to defend the realm as dictated by the configuration of the realms in the control room. In this way, it could easily accept the current kings general ... or is chief advisor just as easily as it would accept his first son.

if the proposed ruler is too weak (or too strong-willed) it will mind-wipe them.

Therefore, the Loremasters have to act as heraldic guardians, ensuring that the proposed ruler is part of the current bloodline (opr will otherwise be acceptable to the majority of the nobility) ...

[Walt]

Beautiful, this concept would answer some questions. And it would imply some severe consequences for the Loremaster organisation and their power play. I have to think this through.
But basically anybody could don the crown, if he get?s the possibility. With the possibility monitored by the Loremasters. (slowly it starts t make fun and get?s decent complicated!)

[DonMoody]

For me, this discussion is going a bit too far afield on some tangents that, in my opinion, are suspect.

That is, while I am all for "imagination, intellect and creativity", I do not believe a perspective of "the Crowns regarded as some medium to enslave the society" is a sound extrapolation given the material that is currently available.
Nor do I believe that a supposition of "the crowns will tolerate any mind that they can mold into a reliable guardian for the realm" is the best match either.
[But, as always, opinions vary.]

For example, isn't it well documented that a very recent ruler in Jaiman did (at least occasionally) openly and publicly wear the crown of their realm?
And that their successor, and likely their predecessor, did not wear the crown (at all)?
This well known 'some do, some do not' aspect would seem to, at the least, contradict the 'enslave society' perspective and thus one could easily view that perspective as not a 'best match' of the available material.

Similarly, isn't is well documented that "only the kings [and queens] of Rhakhaan don the crown with any frequency, and that realm is the only one to survive into the Third Era intact"?
And that this fact is well known (if not widely/publicly known, definitely known within the circles of power in Rhakhaan)?

Also similarly, I thought there was documentation which supported a genetic (or the like) requirement for the crowns.


Interesting discussion.
I just think some of the ideas being suggested are in conflict with previous material from TA.
Which is fine - provided such conflicts are known and openly acknowledged.

DonMoody

[Walt]

Hi Cormac,

after thinking once more on your idea, I have to admit I like it very much.
But wouldn?t in consequence the Loremasters have to obtain a very, very aggresiv power politic, making sure that at the most times their candidate get?s the crown? And who would be all the power players working against the Loremaster organisation? I?m trying to evalute all the consequences out of your concept

 

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt, et al,

Cormac's comments would also help explain why in the 'corridors of power' in Jaiman at least, that there is a permanently attached Loremaster. If you've read the 'Shadowstone Chronicles', you'll notice that the Loremaster spends quite a bit of time with the Emperor Faslurin's off-spring...

This allows them plenty of time to both evaluate and to help mould the children's ways of thinking. It also allows them evaluate potential problems with other members of ruling bodies.

There is another very valuable benefit to having a 'known' Loremaster in the various Realms capitals- they are visible.

This means that the 'opposition' by definition has to watch them. This spreads their resources- and allows the unknown field Loremasters to operate with a bit more freedom. (There's nothing that says that all reports etc, go through the Loremaster at the Capital. He/she could be used as a 'tethered goat' to divert attention from the undercover Loremasters- many of whom they may never meet anywhere in the Realm.)

Hope this helps.

All the Best,

Kevin.