Topic: Loremaster

[Hawkwind]

And now imagine a situation where the king dies without succesors. But he has to sisters with kids. The firstborn of the older sister died, but there is a second son. But there is first son of the younger sister, who?s birth was after the birth of the dead boy of the first boy.

This was an intersting examplde from a friend, who did her doctorate in Medivial History while we were discussing the Crowns of Jaiman. (she had also some other questions, like how do the crowns confirm legitimacy? A pure technical question - I answerd it the easy was, some unknown mixture of high tech and magic. But interesting question). So in the above described situation it?s not quite clear who has got the right as succesor. And I don?t expect that after in a very public ceremony the attendants are happy if their favorite is a drooling idiot afterwards!

I don't know how closely the royal families of Jaiman follow the rules of succession of the English throne (and that of most of the royal houses of Europe in the medieval period), but in England the second son of the eldest sister is higher up on the list of heirs, and in fact all the children of the eldest sister, regardless of age, are ahead of any of the children of the second sister.

However, what I'm not sure of is whether or not the king's eldest sister would be the heir, or if it would pass to her male children.

Hawk

[Terry K. Amthor]

I'm enjoying this discussion so much that I almost hesitate to jump in. Lots of good points and insights. 

There are several references in the ShadowStone Chronicles that might provide some additional info, specifically when Andraax and Tethior visit the Crown Vault in chapters 20 and 24.

[mocking bird]

Actually this occured in our last group.  GM got a little wild and crazy about what happened on Urulan and we ended up finding the Unicorn crown.  The Loremasters were actually useful in this situation, which a rarity as the invariably are more irritating than anything, and told us the location of the last heir - who turned out to be an adolescent half-elven girl.  Needless to say not everyone was happy about the situation but Aandrax showed them the error of their ways.

I have also found the discussion regarding rights of succession as well and considering the problems it caused in medieval Europe, and elsewhere really, I doubt many claimants would attempt the Shadow World crown gom jabbar test.  Especially if they were, allegedly, illegetimate.  Tried and failed?  They tried and died.

[DonMoody]

I doubt many claimants would attempt the Shadow World crown gom jabbar test.

Agreed.
And, at least for Rhakhaan, the time line has a fairly definitive list of its rulers (admittedly, there are 'pauses' when a group of nobles or such rules).
So (with a little leg work, similar to what Terry suggested but by looking at a different resource) one can find out about the heirs to Rhakhaan (while I know of some of its rulers who refused to don the crown *at all*, I know of none that tried on the crown and the crown rejected them).

DonMoody

[Walt]

Such a discussion is most interesting for realizing all the differetent options for the Loremasters and theit consequences. (That?s why I also wrote in my first post about Loremasters interpretations - it?s nice to get an understandung who other GMs are interpreting the stuff)

Before going on in the discussion about possible consequences of this or that concept.

I?m not sure if I summarize correctly, but so far we discussed the concept "blood line related" vs "non-blood line" related. (I like this idea of Cormac). And in the "blood line related" discussion there were basically the two options theirs is one possibilty with the right to rule or their are more possibilities with the right to rule (for sure all out of the perspective of the Crowns, not out of the ruling body, the nobility, the common folk and perhabs even not out of the Loremasters themself)


1. Fit for Rule
Like Cormac wrote the crown screens somebody, deciding if he is fit for ruling.
Without any other legitimating institution there could be the chance that a shepard of Saralis working as hired sword for Frelik stumbles over the Phoenix crown, puts it on his head, the crown accepts him and he finds himself on the Flaming throne of Haakitaine.
2. Blood line as equivalent for right to rule (it?s not the same!-but I can?t oversee all the consequneces arising)
2a. There is ONE possibility for succesion
Here we are in the discussion we had so far, what are the consequences out of this. At least in my opinion the decision of the crown will differ sometimes greatly from the human opinion who has to be the rigthful succesor for the king.
I hate to approach such topics with human technology statements, but neverthless one question: assuming the Rigth to rule depends on the blood line (once more, this can but musn?t be true), and assuming it is related to DNA, what does the crown if everybody out of this bloodline is killed?)
2b. There are MORE possibilities for succesion
This cosuin, or that cousin, or the undead grandfather (by the way, could an undead but rightful king wear the crown??) whoever gets his hands first on the crown AND is fit for rule can done it.

Without going now in the details, are this the 3 basic possibilities?

Interesting discussion!

[Walt]

I?m posting here out of purpose a second post, because I think it makes sense to distinguish between the technical discussion above and the historical discssion now:

A possible, and in my feeling completly different approach to the crowns, can be done if you look at the beginning of the crowns.
Somewhere at the start of the second era two eternal guys get the order do something against Logarlis. The decide to get stability, because with all the human tribes of this time, waring against each other for power, the continent is highly unstable. Now what are the shortlived humans and their tribal chiefs to the elves or a Ka?ta?viir? A little more than apes or animals, something what must be teached so it doesn?t devour itself? And to give it time, it in this political situation it must be controlled? Otherwise it even doesn?t get the time to learn?
At least I could imagine that there were similar thoughts - secure them from themselves!

I?m even wondering if a bloodline concept (rigth to rule) could on the one hand worked out of an elvish perspective (imagine 6000 years with between 2-6 rulers. This can be handled. But it?s differernt with short lived mannish tribes. Perhabs 60 - 300 ruler generations). But at the same time I?m wondering if a blood line concept is in line with an elvish attitude. Imagine you would have an eternal lived incompetent ruler - with no chance of dying??

[DonMoody]

Somewhere at the start of the second era two eternal guys get the order do something against Logarlis.

I thought it was more like this:

Second Era 3835-3840:
Lorgalis consolidates his hold over the western peninsulas.
Lorgalis controls the Bay of Ulor and all sea trade in western Jaiman.
It is clear that Lorgalis won?t stop there.
Forces are massing at the land bridges, and Loremasters have observed a fleet under construction.
After many debates, the Loremaster Council decides that this evil lord must be stopped before he takes any of the mainlands.

Second Era 3840:
At the request of the Loremaster Council, Tethior and Andraax retire to the Alchemist?s forge in Arion and begin work on the Six Crowns, pendants and swords of Jaiman.
Krelij is angered that he was not even consulted on the making of the swords and refuses to speak to his brother Tethior again.
The Vault of Crowns is located under the island in central Jaiman, beneath Tethior?s Forges and Fortress.

Second Era 3840-3910:
The western kingdoms of Saralis and ULyshak arm themselves in preperation for war, anticipating an attack from Ulor.

Second Era 3907:
Lorgalis seems poised to strike.
The Loremasters reveal their plan to the kings of the six major realms of Jaiman and urge Saralis and U-Lyshak to stall by asking for terms of surrender.
The kings bristle at this interference, but realize they have little chance against Lorgalis without help from the High-Elves.

Second Era 3910:
The Six Crowns and other artifacts are completed.
With great ceremony, they are presented to the kings of the six most powerful kingdoms in Jaiman:
U-Lyshak is the Sea-Drake; Saralis ? Wyvern; Tanara ? Pegasus; Zor ? Gryphon; Urulan ? Unicorn; Rhakhaan ? Phoenix
When worn, each crown would normally appear as a simple jeweled circlet, but could magically transform into a protective helm.
? Varis Faslurin II is the first King of Rhakhaan to be presented with the Phoenix Crown.
? Dominating the continent, the six kingdoms wield their items for Light and hold back the Unlife (including the assaults of Lorgalis) for a long period. Even the Flows of Essaence are altered, creating sea-lanes for the trade ships to escape the pirates of Ulor.

Second Era c. 4000:
The Order of the Priests Arnak is formed by a manifestation of the Unlife known as the Iron Wind.
The Priests Arnak establish themselves in six locations across the continent of Jaiman.
Tools of evil, the Priests Arnak work to destroy society and civilization from within.
Each Order has the mission of targeting one of the six kingdoms.


That is, the [well documented] sequence is:
Lorgalis' rise.
Loremasters are concerned about Lorgalis.
Loremasters petition their greatest members to act.
Artifacts are made.
Loremasters give the artifacts to the most powerful kings (of Jaiman).
With these artifacts, they are able to stop Lorgalis' expansion.
In response, the Unlife creates the Priests Arnak, who begin working on destroying the kingdoms from within.
 


To me, the 'monkey-boy' and 'tribal chief' perspectives are also a bit off.

Similarly, although the location(s) of some of the artifacts seem to unknown, the location of the Phoenix crown has been known for the duration of its existence; i.e. no one is accidentally 'stumbling' upon it.

Also, if you take the 'test for worthiness, no bloodline requirement needed' perspective, wouldn't one aspect the crown checks for is whether people would follow the 'new leader'?
As such, it would appear a "shepard of Saralis" is rather unlikely to be seen by the crown as sufficient to its needs.

DonMoody

[Walt]

People stumble about a lot of thing in their life. If not over a crown than mostly over their own ego (e.g. in donning a crown what they shouldn?t do. And some even over English grammar!)

But to come back to the thread: so already at the sheppard example for the "fit to rule" option the first question and discussion would arise that such a person can?t be the rightful ruler hence the crown dosesn?t work properly and should thrown in a Vulkan.

[metallion]

Lorgalis speaks about the crowns:

The Crowns of Jaiman are the perfect illustration of where Andraax went wrong from the very start.  Scholars debate whether the Crowns were the Loremaster's greatest success of failure.  I say to them that it was either their luckiest failure or their costliest success.  Strictly speaking, the Crowns suceeded in their mandate:  They kept me from sweeping across Jaiman.

But, oh the cost!  To prevent me from becoming Emperor of all Jaiman, they blessed kingdoms of Man and Elf.  The House of Iannis, The House of Norekhaan, The House of Alzion, the House of Arain, and all the rest, tyrants and backstabbers every last one, forever enshrined as the rightful rulers of the land.  Left to their own devices, perhaps they would have developed the more Republican forms of government the Loremasters so favor.  But, thanks to the Crowns, nearly all are monarchies to this day.  Even the Arains, who have come as far as an oligarchy, have a society that would collapse under its own weight without the institution of Myri slavery.

And where is the reign of peace for which they hoped?  The land of the Wyvern wars has now warred with itself for longer than it was Crowned.  The Sea-Drake thrashes about, trying to swallow its own tail.  The Gryphon literally wiped from the map.  And the Phoenix?  Richest of all, the Phoenix stands poised to claim MY office as Emperor of all Jaiman.  I would envy if I was not so amused.  Would the Faslurins ever have gotten where they are if they didn't have the Loremaster's own imprimatur to give them legitimacy?

[Walt]

Nicly written!

[Vince]

Well the emperor of Rhaakhaan is really bad-tempered, but doesn't use lugrokis, Heralds of night, and does not kill for the pleasure to kill. Doesn't make human sacrificies, doesn't ally with demons, Dark gods, and Arnak Priests.

For me is a reasonable change. I would prefer him before Lorgalis 


But i understand your point of view , and is reasonable and very good presented

[yammahoper]

Lorgalis speaks about the crowns:

The Crowns of Jaiman are the perfect illustration of where Andraax went wrong from the very start.  Scholars debate whether the Crowns were the Loremaster's greatest success of failure.  I say to them that it was either their luckiest failure or their costliest success.  Strictly speaking, the Crowns suceeded in their mandate:  They kept me from sweeping across Jaiman.

But, oh the cost!  To prevent me from becoming Emperor of all Jaiman, they blessed kingdoms of Man and Elf.  The House of Iannis, The House of Norekhaan, The House of Alzion, the House of Arain, and all the rest, tyrants and backstabbers every last one, forever enshrined as the rightful rulers of the land.  Left to their own devices, perhaps they would have developed the more Republican forms of government the Loremasters so favor.  But, thanks to the Crowns, nearly all are monarchies to this day.  Even the Arains, who have come as far as an oligarchy, have a society that would collapse under its own weight without the institution of Myri slavery.

And where is the reign of peace for which they hoped?  The land of the Wyvern wars has now warred with itself for longer than it was Crowned.  The Sea-Drake thrashes about, trying to swallow its own tail.  The Gryphon literally wiped from the map.  And the Phoenix?  Richest of all, the Phoenix stands poised to claim MY office as Emperor of all Jaiman.  I would envy if I was not so amused.  Would the Faslurins ever have gotten where they are if they didn't have the Loremaster's own imprimatur to give them legitimacy?

How quaint.  Keep talking big guy.  I have a couple of good assassins with kregora arrows just waiting for you to reveal yourself.

Baltag Halftroll the Black, Master of the Golden Order.

[mocking bird]

Well the emperor of Rhaakhaan is really bad-tempered, but doesn't use lugrokis, Heralds of night, and does not kill for the pleasure to kill. Doesn't make human sacrificies, doesn't ally with demons, Dark gods, and Arnak Priests.

That you/he knows of....

Very well written metallion.

A variation on that thought.

Crowns?  Collars.  The Crowns are the most insidious of chains for they conquer the Will through the illusion of Peace.  The Peace of stagnation where freewill has been stripped away.  The invisible chains of servitude to the whims of Adraax.  He, and his Loremaster minions, who treat outsiders as children, or pets in cages called empires, who need to be controlled 'for their own protection'.  Protection from what?  They would rather you be kept ingnorant.  Rather it is they who need protection from their puppets who one day may see their strings.  It is only then when the oppressed rebel against their masters can true freedom can be attained.

Rise up.  Stand against these 'rulers' who are but pawns to a greater power.  A power who quakes at the thought of a free Jaiman.  There are those who still fight for freedom.  There are those who have the will, nay, the duty to stand up to such velvet tyrants and take from them what was not theirs to give.

Stand up to your masters who deceive you and call slavery peace.  You must fight to live, or die, but it will be your life, your choice, your Will.  Is it not better to die on the battlefield is a cause that is just where glory can be had rather than an old man in a cell?   

Is Lorgalis your enemy?  Most certainly for he seeks what Adraax and his pets already have - control.  Can an army of slaves defeat him?  Andraax seems to think so.  Do you?

[DonMoody]

Well, you certainly lived up to your name.

I do not believe the "mind-altering effects" is widely known.
Also, aren't the Priests Arnak the major proponents for the leaders of Jaiman to not wear the crowns?
And isn't this because they are trying to conquer all of Jaiman and know the artifacts, especially the crowns, are the major obstacle to that end?

"King Arej IX ... stops wearing the Phoenix Crown, and falls further under the Magician?s spell."

"While every ruler of the remaining Five Kingdoms dons the crown at coronation and is ?attuned,? a growing recognition of the crowns? mind-altering effects (and a wariness of the influence of Priests Arnak) leads to a tendency to wear them less frequently. Without the will of the wearer, the powers of the crowns to enforce borders are weakened. Border conflicts begin to spring up across the continent. Only the kings of Rhakhaan don the crown with any frequency, and that realm is the only one to survive into the Third Era intact."


I have also not seen that "Lorgalis speaks about the crowns" text before.
Is it entirely made up?
Ot is it from some published material?
To me, it seems a bit off the mark.
For example, I do not believe the actual nature of the crowns is widely known, let alone debated by any.
Also for example, I wonder if Lorgalis has as much information about the crowns and such as that text seems to indicate.

DonMoody

[mocking bird]

Well, you certainly lived up to your name.

Was it that funny in all seriousness?  It came to me from a discussion on another forum regarding the similarities between the Prometheus and Lucifer stories regarding ignorance and rebellion.  Also because I am having a grand old time playing a mythic of Kl,er, Cay.  Yeah - that's it, Cay.

Perhaps because in our group we have never had a good relationship with the Loremasters who are essentially a pompous group of bookworms who don't do anything or tell anyone anything but for being so 'powerful and mysterious' are always in need of help.

I do not believe the "mind-altering effects" is widely known.

Probably depends on the group.  But it does make a good sales pitch.

[DonMoody]

Well, you certainly lived up to your name.

Was it that funny in all seriousness?

I suspect the limit of a text based medium is showing here.

I certainly thought this, amongst other lines, was quite mocking:
"The Crowns are the most insidious of chains for they conquer the Will through the illusion of Peace."

And thus my comment about 'living up to the "mocking bird" name'.


As for the rest, consider this ...
About the middle of the Second Era, Lorgalis (half-K?ta?viir son of a servant of Kadaena - ???Kadaena!!! she who was cast down over 100,00 years ago yet whose name, amongst those who know it, still sends a shiver down their spines) seems poised to take over all of Jaiman.
The Loremaster Council acts (a request to Tethior and Andraax) to prevent this.
They are so successful that, over eight millenia later, Lorgalis has expanded his realm very little.

One can say what one wants, but by that measure - the measure of 'did they succeed at what they were created for?', which was stopping Lorgalis' expansion; specifically his conquest of Jaiman (and who knows what else he would have set his eyes upon after that) - the crowns & such were more successful than anyone could have hoped, let alone expected.

As for Lorgalis' take on the situation, of course he has no praise for any of it (to put it mildly).
Lorgalis was the son of a tyrant who served one who could arguably be called the greatest tyrant ever and he [Lorgalis] is trying to follow in those footsteps and be as big a tyrant as he can.
That a ragtag group could - for such a *long, long* time - so stymie his efforts has got to stick in his craw.

Yeah, I am sure he is just being patient, ever building his strength, biding his time until he is assured of victory.
But 9,000 years is a long time to have to live with the fact that by that one act - creation and distribution of the crowns, pendants and swords - the individual who killed his father stopped him [Lorgalis] from taking over all of Jaiman.
And not only stopped his expansion cold but stopped it for *thousands* of years.
So much for following in his father's footsteps.

Try living with that failure for a few years and see the bitter taste it leaves in your mouth.
Now multiply that taste a thousand fold (because, you know, it's been about nine thousand years) and you get some idea of what Lorgalis has had to live with for the last half of the Second Era and [so far] all of the Third Era [and for who knows how much longer].

That Lorgalis is not a happy camper is the understatement of the Era.

DonMoody

[Walt]

Crowns?  Collars.  The Crowns are the most insidious of chains for they conquer the Will through the illusion of Peace.  The Peace of stagnation where freewill has been stripped away.  The invisible chains of servitude to the whims of Adraax.  He, and his Loremaster minions, who treat outsiders as children, or pets in cages called empires, who need to be controlled 'for their own protection'.  Protection from what?  They would rather you be kept ingnorant.  Rather it is they who need protection from their puppets who one day may see their strings.  It is only then when the oppressed rebel against their masters can true freedom can be attained.

Hi DSM, where are you located? I think I have to pay you a ticket to germany at the time my group meet a High Priest of Arank so you can handle him! Fantastic written, so true!
This coul even fit in my campaign as reason for Elor once dark to change to the dark side. Because he is a pretty cynical person in my story!

[Witchking20k]

The longer he waits, the thinner the resistance gets in many ways.  Simply marching accross Jaiman would draw the undivided attention of anyone powerful enough to resist.....and I certainly don't think he's affraid of "military" resistance as much as some intervention from Powerful individuals.
IMO

[Walt]

Would the Faslurins ever have gotten where they are if they didn't have the Loremaster's own imprimatur to give them legitimacy?

@metallion: so you also the the legitimacy to rule and/or to hand over the crowns at least on a certain level in the hands of the loremasters? And thus making them in certain cases quite a public organisation?

[mocking bird]

Hi DSM, where are you located? I think I have to pay you a ticket to germany at the time my group meet a High Priest of Arank so you can handle him! Fantastic written, so true!

You might get a little soggy as DSM is short for Des Moines, IA in the USA.