Topic: Loremaster

[DonMoody]

Didn't the Closed Essence, Spell Enhancement list also have some ways to increase the range of spells?

DonMoody

[kmanktelow]

Hi, All,

Never posted before, but this one intrigued me a bit.

Why bother with Spells, etc, except in an absolute emergency?

Pen and ink has served the human race well for centuries- and we know from the comments at the beginning of the Chapters in various books that the Loremasters *write* their reports.

These could be posted to a regional 'headquarters', in civilised areas, or it might be a case of travelling in less safe areas, to deliver the report.

For example, in most civilised areas, there is at least one high-ranking Loremaster at the local Administration/Ruling centre- so the report is either delivered or posted to them, and from them on to the Loremaster Council.

In less civilised areas, it is slightly more problematic, as they would either have to travel to the regional centre themselves, or get someone else to carry the report for them. But, they do seem to be good at getting people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.

Also, I would imagine that the Loremasters are slightly flexible in the timing of the Reports- because of the nature of the world they are working in.

It just seems more sensible to send written reports- as they can be much lengthier than some spells allow, and saves valuable Power Points.

Hope this makes sense. 

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

It makes sense. But then for sure they would need some Secret Language, supposed only to be known by Loremasters. Otherwise the reports are to easily intercepted.

Kevin, do you use a post system in your campaigns?

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt,

To be honest, I've rarely used Loremasters- I generally left it up to the players to bail themselves out of the troubles that they generally got themselves into! 

I always felt that the Loremasters were quite rare characters- most normal people could probably go their whole lives without (knowingly) coming into contact with one.

(Mind you, they used to run afoul of Servants of the Unlife with embarassing regularity.)

As for a secret language, it doesn't necessarily need to be secret, there are spells that will get around that type of thing (Lore, etc.) But, there are ways of obfuscating text, substitution, cyphers, etc.

But, as for a postal service, again I've not really used it- just taken it as read that any large city will have one- and it's pretty reliable. You just have to look at things like the Pony Express and the Royal Mail, they were reliable (or as reliable as they could be.) Certainly, within a Realm like Rhakhaan, it would be comparable in security to the Royal Mail.
And, the advantage of sending a letter c/o The Palace pretty much ensures that it's going to be fairly safe in amongst the large number of other letters they will recieve. (And, the mail for the Palace is sure to be well guarded.)

Mail for other areas would be more problematic- but there is almost certainly going to be some sort of service between places like Haalkitaine, Lethys, Sel-Kai/Eidolon- possibly on a Sky-Ship so, again security is likely to be tight.

The bad guys have got several problems, the biggest being which specific mail delivery is the letter they are interested in, going to be going in? They hit a couple of deliveries and security will be tightened up. (The Loremaster could also send several copies of the letter- just posting them at different times.)

For particularly sensitive documents, they could simply pay someone they know to be reliable, to take it where ever it's got to go.

Hope this helps,

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

To be honest, I've rarely used Loremasters- I generally left it up to the players to bail themselves out of the troubles that they generally got themselves into! 

I always felt that the Loremasters were quite rare characters- most normal people could probably go their whole lives without (knowingly) coming into contact with one.

Hi Kevin,

for me it?s just the same: they are rare. And fur sure their work isn?t to get the players out of trouble or forward any information.

Are the Loremasters in your campaign more a secret organisation? Or does the "normal" farmer know about them?

And thanks for all the ideas about the postal system!

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt,

The Loremasters in my games were almost mythical characters. So, whilst people would probably have heard of them, they would almost never realise that 'that bloke in the corner of the bar is a disguised Loremaster.'

During the Second Era they did a lot of high profile work (The Jaimani Crowns for instance.) But, following the Wars of Dominion they are a lot more secretive- in many ways operating in the same way as their counterparts in the Priests Arnak. The Loremaster's however use information in a different way, and try to bring out the more noble qualities in people. So, essentially they work in a diametrically opposed manner.

In many respects you could envisage an Angel sat on one of a characters shoulders, and a Devil on the other:
Wheedling voice "Go on, have another beer and get into a psychotic rage- you're a Lord, they can't throw you in the Cells."
Noble voice "No, you need an early nights sleep- you've got an important meeting with the Ambassador from Sel-Kai in the morning."

This isn't to say that they wouldn't be seen in a small village. If they know that there is a Priest Arnak or other servant of the Unlife in the area, they will intervene. But, it will be low-key- maybe paying someone to investigate some strange happening or, whispering in someone's ear some sensible advice like "if they are up to no good, it'll be a feather in your cap if you expose them."

In many ways, they can easily operate on the basis of what 'some bloke said in the bar' in rural areas more easily than in the Cities where people are better educated. Conversely, the Servants of the Unlife, also find it easier to operate in rural areas (and they can use the back up of the Messengers- there's nothing like a few brutal slayings by persons unknown to raise the paranoia to a fever pitch.)

Hope this helps.

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

Thanks Kevin,

I?m using the exactly same approach. After the setback of the wars of dominion they are really keeping to a low profile. And they aren?t to well regarded either.
Most kings heard enough rumours of the powers of the Jaimani crowns changing their mind set. Or at least have some handed down suspicions about Loremasters. That?s also the reason why they never again tried to fill out a high profile like in the second era.
Another topic makes them quite disreptably: the organisation consists mainly out of Elves. Nothing you really wan?t to be in the Rhakhaan Empire!

[Zwilnik]

I wouldn't let players characters be Loremasters. The amount of background knowledge they are supposed to have is too great, and there are many things they simply wouldn't do (or would not be allowed to do). Ditto for Navigator player characters.

Kevin gets my vote when it comes to communications. Astrologer and mentalist spells are neat, but they require someone to be of the appropriate profession, and at a relatively high level. Not everyone has them, and the network must work for everybody. Drop-boxes and notes left for the local agent are used with low-priority information. High-priority information like Arnak meddling is told in person to the Loremaster in charge of a journeyman, if possible. Astrologers and mentalists probably collect communications from difficult locations, but most are likely involved in their own operations.

Profile of operations depends on the place. Jaiman still has Loremasters appearing in public, and they are still given respect. But every real operative works under cover. On Emer (and many other places), they keep low. Being a Loremaster might have been hot in the second era before the Wars of Dominion, but since then the prospects of living to retirement have become directly proportional to the ability to remain unnoticed.

Zener Morndraak is a great example of things going wrong. Experienced agent, important information, captured, tortured, and killed. Didn't get a full report out.

In the current campaign in Emer I have used the Loremasters only once, and even then their agent actually came to investigate the actions of the player characters (he wanted to know whether they were subverting the local religion - paladin of the group had gone into full preaching mode a couple of games earlier). He came, he investigated, and he left after a couple of plot seeds and cryptic warnings.

I have tried to downplay the reliability and even motivations of Loremasters in Emer. Most people don't know anything about them. Some, especially many nobles of NW Emer, consider them a nosy cult. Even many scholars refuse to believe that their intents are pure, which leads to general suspicion. A few know better but don't speak up in fear of being painted spies of the organization.

Loremasters are also somewhat trapped by their desire to know everything about a situation before acting. It makes them unwilling to commit when they can't estimate the consequences. And with all the cults running around, this means they rarely do anything but manipulate player characters into doing the heavy lifting.

[markc]

 Please for give me as I do not know Shadow World that well but I have been glancing at the threads he for a while. But maybe an additional ability added to thier compuss might be in order to allow them to communicate with the approperate people? Or maybe a new spell list needs to be devised for Loremasters to allow them to communicate with one another or thier contact?

Just some thoughts.
MDC

[Walt]

Hi Markc, thats being more the Navigators, the coupl of young boys and girls jumping around the globe with their compasses

[Walt]

We tried the first time a Loremaster Charakter and it works out perfectly. (Only generating a little more work for the GM, so I?ve got to make my mind up how the Loremaster Organisation works)
Because the Loremasters are working undercover in my Jaiman version, the other players even don?t know that one character is a Loremaster.
The directive of not interfering creates wonderful story lines and roleplaying hooks and the backround knowledge he gives away is very, very scarce. Because he is a Loremaster!

We only had some technical problems, because it?s habit to start in our group in Level 1. This generated some discussions, because I wouldn?t allow a Loremaster travelling around in level 1. But the Journeyman concept and a starting lv 5 was satisfiying enough for both parties

[Vince]

wow wow wow stop that chariot 

Uf, i don't think that Loremaster have any spell or magic item to report, at least the most of the field agents; like someone said i usually think in Pen & Ink. I see it this way: maybe is true that there are a few TRUE LOREMASTERS (above 25th level), but i believe they have a great number of low-level people working for the Order.

As it seems to me , it can work  this way: Someone like Zenek Moordak writes an inform as some of we can read in our books, and then people like Drey in Shadowstone Chronicles have worked a few years in taberns or normal jobs regarding information, not only what they hear in that place, also recivieng the reports. Then every few weeks the same Drey, or one of the various bards that travel along the lands gets all this to a major city, like Haalkitaine, Eidolon or Lethys.

In this point, now we can begin to think in a True Loremaster with magical powers or items to send directly the info to Karilon, but i don't think that any magical happens before here.

So that doesn't mean that every person in the Order has magical powers, probably most of them don't, they are only trusted persons that guard the reports(and maybe without knowing what it is) a few days or weeks until the "mailman" comes. Most of them will have normal jobs, and only will gain a few incentive in money and knowing they are helping to change the world.

Bards, Rangers(remember the order of rangers that help loremasters in Haalkitaine book) , Druids, all this errand people can be "mailmans" for Loremasters in most of the reports.

Maybe, in a lower level of power, people like Zenek Moordak that writes reports, will have a single magical coin to summon a Navigator for exceptional reports. It is stated that Navigators help sometimes Loremasters in exceptional situations, like the time that a mixed and coordinated team of Loremasters and Navigators rescued every book or art they were able before the sack of Aldain City or during the Wars of Dominion.

  That's the way i see it, hope it helps.

[Walt]

So we have the magic full-on and the pen & ink approach.
I?m wondering, speaking about ressources, how much would it cost the Loremaster organisation the create an nearly endless supply of magical communication-items?
And another question: how long, in average, does it take somebody to achieve Level 20+?

[DonMoody]

I really can't see a journeyman loremaster being below 10th level.

And even then, during the apprenticeship, the required learning would take care of all this reporting stuff (along with a *lot* of other stuff that a loremaster would need to have/know to be a loremaster).

Yes, some of that training might just require learning a base list of another profession.

But that's just too bad - it is simply one aspect of the price paid to be loremaster.

DonMoody

[markc]

 I would also add that in my world average people are any where from 3rd to 8th level and I start PC's at 3rd to 5th level depending on thier status as pure arms, semi, pure spell or arcane. But that is just my game.
 So if I envision a Loremaster Journeman I think I woudl also start him at 10th-12th level and go from there. I think I would look at the NPC's to get a feel of where I would want to start a Journeman in his teachings.

 Also I do think that I might set up a false frount [like the Priests thread below] for the Loremasters and try and get anyone involved that I could. So they think they are reporting to the secret org. but infact they are helping out the unlife or worse things gain knowledge of current events.

MDC

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt et al,

I can't remember which Rolemaster Companion 2nd Ed it was in, but there was a chart that gave the time for non-adventuring characters to reach various Levels, based I think on race and SD. (But, don't quote me!)

I vaguely remember that it took a looonnnnngggggggggg time for Elven characters to naturally advance levels, compared to mortal characters.

The biggest problem with the Magical communication idea, is the Flows of Essaence. I could see them interfering with long-range magical communication, or any spells that allow distance transport of objects. (Remember that the Navigators get a lifetime of training and have the Compasses to assist them- and even that isn't a guarantee of reliable transport.)
Imagine trying to communicate an urgent message on a really bad phone line, whilst it sounds like you are speaking underwater- during a thunderstorm- and you get some idea of the problems the Flows could cause.

I agree with Vince, that they use some form of reliable (or at least reasonably reliable) system of Mail Drops, and Safe Houses. In many ways they are probably best considered to be operating like a bunch of Spies in 'enemy' territory; using moles, sleepers, and all the paraphenalia you've probably read about in Spy novels.

No Pen Pistols, or Invisible Cars, however.

The other thing to remember with the Loremasters, is that in general, they are recruited young- the younger the better.

Hope this helps,

All the Best,

Kevin

[Walt]

Beautiful discussion, interesting statements.

I?m wondering why Terry didn?t integrate any long term communication spells in the Loremaster Base spells. Out of mistake or out of purpose? I would suggest purpose, because the Teleport Spell is already in Lv 6. And that?s damned low!
And kmanktelow really has a point there, with the interfering of long-range magical communication. I even would add that to "broadcast" on long term you need much power. And this could pick up the interest of a couple of guys. (I never used "safe" magic).

Powerlevel: I?ve got the same chart in mind, and if I rember correctly it takes ages to advance in Level. That?s why I come to the conclussion, the most Loremasters have to been pretty old and fragile or Elves. (wouldn?t that be a perfect reason to change to the Unlife-realising that you are already twice dead before you come to power in the Loremaster org?)
The other topic is the general power level. If the world avarage people are already lv 3-8, than the most level have to be upgraded. I?m using for the average population Lv 1-4.
And beautiful idea, the false frount!

[dutch206]

The rules in question appeared in RoCo VI.  I use them all the time for estimating the age of NPC's.

[Walt]

After checking the rule I calculated that all the mid 30 are supposedly Lord Level (Lv 20)
Realising this and being 35 I thing I made a mistake in real life.

[Walt]

Besides, how many Loremasters and affiliates would you suspect alltogether in let?s say Jaiman?