Topic: Fighting with Two Weapons and Haste

[Hubbaman]

It seems that chart T-4.4 is different on page 102 and page 313 in RMSS.

I do agree with you Rasyr, it would be difficult to consentrate when you are engaged in melee.
Guess you have to kill your first opponent, then consentrate before killing the last two 

But on the other hand, if we follow this thought, will the skill stunned maneuver ever be possible? In most cases you are engaged in melee 

[markc]

I have always used the RM2 style that I was taught in which a player can use adrenals every other round. No matter the combat situation. But I do see a very good point about having adrenals being used only with non-engaged combat situations or non combat situations. Especially if you adapt the Combat Companion rules with the MAC for multiple attacks for combat styles.

MDC

[kevinmccollum]

I'm with Markc on this. In fact, in RM2, the rules STATED you couldn't attempt any adrenal move in consecutive rounds. I don't have a problem using it in combat but I do apply all the penalties in the rules.

[mtpnj]

I have 2  copies of RMSS with copyright of 1995.  The first printing and the second printing.  In the first printing table 4-4 on 102 and 313 both say engaged in melee, not allowed.  In the second printing on page 102 it only says "In a melee situation -20, but on 313 it says "engaged in melee -30, melee situation -20.".

There was also a difference in everyman and occupational skills cost developement between the 2 printings which led to some odd discussions until we realized we had different printings as people were developing characters differently.

[providence13]

which led to some odd discussions until we realized we had different printings as people were developing characters differently.

too true.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, the old ICE was apparently fond of tweaking/changing things from print run to print run (let alone "numbered printings" or versions).

We discovered that when doing RMC -- We were going nuts in regards to Arms Law, as almost nobody had the same thing for some of the tables...

[kevinmccollum]

Yeah, it made it a slight challenge when two players had two versions of the rulebook. RM2 Spell law had differences in spell levels and in the cost for extraordinary spell list picks. they made it cheaper in the red covered version.

[providence13]

ON a similar note, one of my players asked hotly "which set of rules are we using?" (This was after I told him how Detect Enemies really worked.)
I told him that, unfortunately, we would take each item on a case by case basis as there are many versions of rules in the same version of the game.
That and the fact I'm not typing the entire set of rules that apply to my game..

On Adrenal Moves as it applies to Haste and 2 weapons..
I understand what you mean about the "close your eyes concentration", but I don't share the example. For me, it is just a 20% Activity action that happens in your round. If you do it 1st, you'll likely receive a penalty (-20) to your next action. But I don't make them close their eyes.

[markc]

 I only make my players close there eyes when I throw dice at them. They quickly learn not to close there eyes. 

MDC

[Marc R]

We always treated that 50% much like concentration for maintaining a spell, it drains you 50% activity, but no eye closing lack of focus for half a round in which you drop out of OB/DB melee posture.

We always considered the whole round as one declaration period, so for us the "Declare" then "Roll Initiative" then "Resolve" applied to hasted people and parry.

If there's only one initiative for the round in which the hasted person acts, and they declare the OB/DB split before initiative is determined, then they have to stick to one OB/DB split for the whole round.

Of course, that made us use a 200% activity round much like Ecth, we were never much happy with the "act 100% with the normal people, then get another 100% at the end of the round" scenario as it seemed to make the hasted act longer instead of faster, which seemed goofy to us. If you're moving twice as fast, then you should move twice as fast, not twice as long.

The worst street legal abuse of haste and kinda TWC I can recall is "I throw the dagger at him at full OB, then Full Parry for 100% action full DB with the sword in my other hand, then draw another dagger." makes it rather hard to hit you while risking a nasty thrown dagger shot, snap thrown and off hand penalty or not, since the sword DB would kick in right after initiative. I can't recall how that got stepped on.

[markc]

 If you want trouble think of some of the creatures who get multiple attacks and haste them. Bad news PC's.

MDC

[providence13]

OK!
I ask this here because it is pertinent to Hasted Combat and 'cause I get next to zero response on my questions about Elementals.

If you want trouble think of some of the creatures who get multiple attacks and haste them. Bad news PC's.

MDC

If a critter does have multiple attacks in a round... and they are then Hasted... do they have twice the # of attacks? Well, yeah, it's a no brainer.. but if a F&I Whispling Air Elemental gets 3 +10 Small Bash attacks, then Hasted it would receive 6 +10 Small Bash attacks! Now, this is as weak as the really fast elemental critters come for a 3rd lvl Summoning. If the same applies to the larger types... ouch!
Continuing with the "2 weapon combat Haste topic", with these 6 (six!) attacks per round,
can the little guy parry multiple foes?
          Also, RAW, it doesn't matter if one of its assailants has a chair leg, as long as they can parry, that parry amount  is deducted from all 6 attacks.
Is it able to increase its already whopping 80 DB by parrying? Granted, that won't be much with only a 10 to pull from, but it could still get 6 +0 Small Bash attacks and a 90 DB.

Do I have this right?

[vroomfogle]

I always felt that Haste was an overpowered relic from the earlier rules where % action wasn't used.   

Now using % action for every round Haste or Adrenal Speed could add some activity but not necessarily a complete 100%.   This would cause it to scale quite nicely.   When PC's get Haste and their opponents don't (or vice versa) it becomes unbalanced quite quickly.   

Even a 25% increase in action is pretty nice for the low level Haste effects, scaling up to 100% and even beyond at higher levels.  I don't think a 300% is out of the question.   Perhaps the spell even allows you to divide up the increase among however many rounds you want - so with Haste 100% you could get 10% increase for 10 rounds, 25% for 4, etc. 

[Ecthelion]

Now using % action for every round Haste or Adrenal Speed could add some activity but not necessarily a complete 100%.   This would cause it to scale quite nicely.

Yes, it could be handled like this, but this is not the case in the current rules. Haste and Adrenal Speed add another full 100% to activity and this can't be divided to e.g. 4 times a +25% over four rounds.

Even a 25% increase in action is pretty nice for the low level Haste effects, scaling up to 100% and even beyond at higher levels.  I don't think a 300% is out of the question.   Perhaps the spell even allows you to divide up the increase among however many rounds you want - so with Haste 100% you could get 10% increase for 10 rounds, 25% for 4, etc. 

As I mentioned, this is only a theoretical approach. But yes, this would make Haste/Adrenal Speed even more powerful, probably too much.

I always felt that Haste was an overpowered relic from the earlier rules where % action wasn't used.   

IMO it does not matter whether you use RM2, RMC or RMSS/RMFRP.

[vroomfogle]

Ecthelion, I'm not really sure what you are talking about.   I was simply proposing an alternative option to toning down what I see as one of the most overpowered abilities in RM.   

I don't know what you mean by

As I mentioned, this is only a theoretical approach.

I went back and skimmed the thread and don't see anywhere the concept of dividing Haste effects into multiple rounds being mentioned.   Furthermore, when I mentioned 300% I envision this is a very high level effect.  Since at very high levels casters can pretty much do anything imaginable I hardly see how 300% is all that powerful.

In the first edition of RM there was no % action so Haste was simply "double normal".   Once later editions incorporated % action it, IMO, makes more sense to have Haste use a gradation of Haste effects rather than simply "double normal".

[Ecthelion]

Ah, I don't get that your posting should be a proposal. I rather thought it was a weird interpretation of the RMSS rules  .

[vroomfogle]

Put more simply, I think that the lowest level Haste rather than giving 1 round of 100% increase in action should be more like:

Haste I:
Grants a 25% increase in action which can be spread between multiple rounds as desired (determined at the time of casting).

and at higher levels perhaps:

Haste III:
Grants a 100% increase in action which can be spread between multiple rounds, but no single round may have more than 50% increase activity.


This would allow Haste to still be quite useful, the increased % can allow additional movement and spell preparation, loading of missile weapons faster, etc, but not allowing for a second melee attack until the higher levels of Haste.

[Ecthelion]

Did you experience problems with Haste, or why do you suggest to tone it down? From our experience Haste spells have never been problematic since the cost of 6 PPs for a hasted round is quite expensive.

[vroomfogle]

I've always found Haste to be a problem and have controlled it in the past by introducing Stress criticals once they have been hasted for more then 5 rounds in a given day. 

The PP's certainly can control it, but between Adrenal Speed, herbs (Zulsendra), Bladerunes if in use, and Haste, access never seems to be a problem.

[providence13]

To build on Vroomfogle's idea.. You could have Haste I be a + %Act/level... like +10%Act/lvl. Haste I is a 6th level spell. Most people are 3 levels above the spell they're trying to cast so 10th lvl is +100%Act.

Haste II could act like Speed and affect 1 person for  2 rounds or 2 people for 1 round. The +%Act could be divided as the caster saw fit.
Haste III could affect 3 people or the target for 3 rounds...

Another, simpler solution would be that for every round the target is Hasted, the caster is Slowed to 50%Act.