Topic: Fighting with Two Weapons and Haste

[providence13]

Paraphrasing the bottom of that section..

A Parry is declared against a specific opponent no matter how many attacks they have. This applies to TWC and Haste. Confused? The catch is what is the definition of an attack? An attack is defined as a series of blows from a single facing. So, a Hasted TWC person makes "one attack" even though it's multiple attack rolls.

So, according to everything in/on this topic...
If you attack, the DB is by phase..
If you Parry, the DB applies to "the attack" from your opponent, no matter how many rolls.

This sounds weird.

[Ecthelion]

IMO it's not so "weird". Parry is your general defensive stance for a given period of time, so that, if you generally act more defensively, your parry amount applies to all incoming attacks during that time. But if you change your defensive stance in a round and act offensively from some time onward, then from this point the parry amount the improves your DB also gets changed.

[mocking bird]

It also makes it more fair since otherwise the attacker would have a huge advantage is the defender had to split parry further between attacks, ineffect halving the potential parry DB per attack.   Not to mention if the defender split his DB between to attacks the previous round then the attacker switched to one weaopn the allocated DB would be wasted

[markc]

 I see the problem being if the attacker, hasted or not, knows when he is going to be attacked. If he does he can declare to attack in a different phase and allocate all of his OB into DB for that phase.
 If I have the above wrong its my default as I use a home brew combat system so I do not have my head in the RM combat system all the time.

MDC

[Ecthelion]

markc, this is indeed correct. E.g. animal use to attack in the Normal Action Phase, so that a hasted attacker could parry until that phase and fully attack in the Deliberate Action Phase. If that is being exploited by the players I'd suggest to more often use a random phase for attacks of NPCs.

[yammahoper]

Since parry is a statement of defence, any parry must be subtracted from ALL attacks, even when hasted.  It may sound limiting, but it is not.  I have used this rule for many years to stop the "parry with 100% and attack with 100%" nonsense.

Use the same rules for parry used with two weapon combo is what I am saying.

[mocking bird]

Actually we don't have a problem with a 100 attack, 100 parry as they would constitute two actions.  But it does have the same problem still as yamma in that each tend towards the 200 percent action instead of 2 x 100 as the latter implies that you are using part of both sets of action at the same time, i.e. parts of both attacks to parry with.  What we definitely do NOT allow is a 200 percent attack/parry.

Regarding markc's comment about parrying in a phase - is it a house rule we have incorporated that you don't parry in a phase rather it is 'active' the whole round?  Again, it kind of blurs the phases togetheras you could attack and parry, which is a function of attacking, at different times.  If so then that further weakens parrying further as you now have to guess when to do it and if you guess wrong tough noogies.  Probably another reasone we got rid of the phases and just use init modifiers for snap/deliberate phases.

[markc]

 What about declaring actions? If you declaring actions then people know who is doing what. That is the problem I see.
MDC

[pastaav]

Is there really any rational reason why you should be able to have different parry in different phases?

Looking at the benefits of being hasted and the problem of resolving when a attack really happens I see little reason of allowing such. It seems weird that character A that attacks for 10 seconds can not take advantage of the hasted character B lack of defense during part of the combat.

In real life they are fighting each other whole time so why not add the house rule that even hasted characters need to use them same parry amount for all their attacks? A simple rule that remove all silly discussions about 100% parry in the normal phase and more offensive later since all animals use the normal phase to attack.

[Ecthelion]

In real life they are fighting each other whole time so why not add the house rule that even hasted characters need to use them same parry amount for all their attacks? A simple rule that remove all silly discussions about 100% parry in the normal phase and more offensive later since all animals use the normal phase to attack.

Not the worst idea I have heard on this topic... 

[Nders]

In real life they are fighting each other whole time so why not add the house rule that even hasted characters need to use them same parry amount for all their attacks? A simple rule that remove all silly discussions about 100% parry in the normal phase and more offensive later since all animals use the normal phase to attack.

I agree entirely.

It also makes it more fair since otherwise the attacker would have a huge advantage is the defender had to split parry further between attacks, ineffect halving the potential parry DB per attack. Not to mention if the defender split his DB between to attacks the previous round then the attacker switched to one weaopn the allocated DB would be wasted

I know this may seem provocative but the switching between modes of attack is what you call tactics.

[providence13]

I do like simple rules. The "same parry for that combat round no matter how many attacks" is just like "DB vs opponent applies for the entire round no matter how many attacks."

On the tactics side..
It sounds just like a prolonged feint. "I tapped him a few times just to see how good he was, then I decided it was not honorable to continue. Dragging the body to an alley, I resumed my quest."
If you're accustomed to MAC, it shouldn't be that difficult, I guess.

IMHO, it just sounds like totally different rules are applied in the same scenario, by just adding Haste, or Bash, or TWC into the mix. I believe the rules are good enough... I just don't know 'em that well for this instance.
I'm totally dropping the Phase system though. That's for sure!

[mocking bird]

I know this may seem provocative but the switching between modes of attack is what you call tactics.

What it does is turn a fight into a simple guessing game giving a distinct, and imo unfair, advantage to the attacker by limiting the effectiveness of a parry.  In effect you have reduced parry DB to 1/3 since in order for it to be at least partially effective you have to spread it out further or end up with a 2/3 chance it will be completely useless.  If you go after declaration then you already know when your opponent is going to parry making it 100% useless which from a realism standpoint is completely nonsensical.

[providence13]

This is why I like slowest initiative states intentions and then the faster init states intentions. IMHO, it shows that they can tell what the slower guy is about to do, then react to it.
If you use MAC, then Feints have a bit more importance.

"I know he was faster, and likely a better fighter, but he didn't have the experience; so I left an opening that he couldn't resist which left him wide open.."

[mocking bird]

This is why I like slowest initiative states intentions and then the faster init states intentions. IMHO, it shows that they can tell what the slower guy is about to do, then react to it.

Which makes parrying completely pointless for the person with the slower init.

Thinking about this parrying is a reaction to an attack.  So how do you exactly react to someones reaction to something you haven't done yet?

[providence13]

Is it realistic... no, unless you're fighting precogs.. just kidding.

Technically, I see these things happening at the same time.
Two people square off and do their best to put the other down.
If "the OB/DB split is done for each combatant in the Action declaration phase", then IMHO, these are happening at about the same time and good roleplaying comes into play. (Just like "I'm scouting ahead of the party, tell me what I see/hear", and it's assumed that those sitting beside of the player won't act on it. )

Both people try different ways to "interact" with their combatant. Full parry, OB/DB split, etc.
Normally one person is the faster of the two, but this may not have much to do with the slower declaring their intention at the same time as the faster one.

I could be entirely wrong.. but I don't believe the faster fighter says "I'm using 70 for OB and saving 20 for DB  so the slower fighter states "well if he's not doing much for DB, I'm pumping up OB.."

To me, I see it more as the faster guy being told "you can tell by the shift of his shoulders and a slight twist of the hips that Brother Woo is trying to perform the Monkey's Paw kick"... The slower guy doesn't telegraph the moves, it's just a mechanic to show who is on "top" of things.

So, IMHO, both things "happen at the same time", I just like this game mechanic to explain the whole thing.

And could be entirely wrong..

[DangerMan]

Ok, so haste and TWC gives four attacks. Thats ok by me, because as I recall, haste has some drawbacks - you have to rest a lot in the following rounds, or suffer a modifier to all actions.

Adrenal speed is a wholde different story. Now, a PC may develop a strong TWC-skill and ditto for adrenal speed.  This guy would get four attacks every round - no penalty except for the -20 which stems from the adrenal speed maneuver. (Note: we ditched the phase system long ago - halleluja!). Assume he has the talent directed weapons master (or, God forbid, even Precision as well!). This, IMHO, is a Sword Monster!

IMO, I think both these skills, TWC and adrenal speed, are BS. When brought together, god damn, it just ridicoulus! However, such a combination is nothing but the product of a very clever player, who has taken the time to study the books - which should not be punished, IMO.

SOHK offer some support on adrenal speed. I like the fact that they have gone a long way in suggesting heavy modifiers, but these are way too open to subjective interpretation. I would loath the GM/PC disussions that no doubt would follow...

Any thoughts?

[Cormac Doyle]

Adrenal Speed (and the other Adrenal X skills) ***cannot*** be used in consecutive rounds unless you are using a house rule.

They also incur a penalty either in the preceding round or the subsequent round to mirror the "preparation" or "recovery". Any such prep/recovery cannot occur if you are performing an Adrenal action!

[DangerMan]

Please eloborate! There's one round of prepration, then the next round he might get the benefits of adrenal speed? Correct?

Then he could, spend one round using 20% activity on preparation and attack with -20 with both weapons, then the next round he could use all four attacks? And so forth?

Just assume Adolf Hitler war re-incarnated as a power gamer - what would he do? (BTW, Adolf knows the rules quite well, but would never misinterpret them to his advantage)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Ok, so haste and TWC gives four attacks. Thats ok by me, because as I recall, haste has some drawbacks - you have to rest a lot in the following rounds, or suffer a modifier to all actions.

Actually, that would be Speed spells that require 1 round at 50% for every round at 200% activity.

Please eloborate! There's one round of prepration, then the next round he might get the benefits of adrenal speed? Correct?

Correct. And then in round 3, he is back to only 2 attacks and must prepare again, and then in round 4 he gets 4 attacks, and then in round 5, back to 2 attacks and must prepare again, and so forth...

And do not forget that when he parries, that amount is removed from ALL attacks he makes in the round (i.e. if his OB is 80 for all attacks, and he parries with 40 points, then his OB for all attacks is now 40 and only 40 is added to DB).

Also, when you have a player who does something like this (i.e. melee monster), the best response is usually to turn it back on him. Have foes who do the same thing (twc & adrenal speed) to him.

Also word of prowess like that is going to spread (adventurers like to tell tales), and that can create a wild west situation with lots of swordsmen out to make a name for themselves by challenging him to duels.

Another side effect of such "fame" is that as word spread, there will be less and less willing to engage him in melee. They will instead opt for ranged attacks, preferably from someplace that he cannot easily get to without exposing himself to more attacks (i.e. attacking from small cliff tops, etc..).