Author Topic: SPAR Feedback Wanted  (Read 6234 times)

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Offline jurasketu

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SPAR Feedback Wanted
« on: November 24, 2008, 03:13:58 PM »
Has anyone tried my SPAR rules?

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/mar/sparforharp.html

If so, I would welcome any feedback - good or ill.

Robin
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 07:39:18 AM »
jurasketu,
  I will be looking over your stuff during Thanksgiving. I will shoot some of my thoughts on it to you after the Holiday...

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Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 09:43:21 AM »
Excellent. Good luck. I recommend running some mock combats.
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

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Offline ondoheer

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 12:47:59 PM »
Hi, Im going to give it a try for real on sunday, we have run some mock combats and so far so good. I wondered if you had any other ideas for mounted combat, but i?ve been told to just apply it as it goes. All my players seem exited about it, mainly becouse its not such a drastical change, they all can adapt to it really fast, and becouse it makes a little bit more sense and gives you many new combat oportunities. We will see, Ill try to put enough skirmishes during this session so I can have a real feedback for you.

Offline ondoheer

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 03:54:35 PM »
Hi Juraketsu, we tried it in a 8h session full of combat, it took the players only 5 mins to understand it, and they can actually say the loved the system, they were really worriend of it since they have used the rolemaster system for 8 years or so, but it took them no time to learn SPAR and find its benefits. The fighting actually got a little more dinamic, and I was able to use that to influence the plot, I have to say the system allowed me to plan how I exactelly wanted my "boss" fight to go, In the past it had been a real pain in the ass when I wanted to separete two figthers for instance, now it all went smooth as i had planned it.

Me and the other GM are definetly going to use your system from now on.

I have another RPG group of ppl that has never player RPGs before, Ill see them again in January and let you know how It went with them, for Im only a little concerned at first the rules might confuse them (i ussually calcuate all for them so they can focus on role playing) but in the end I think it will be easier for them to learn to use your system than learning the hard way how much is agood amount of OB to allocate to parrying maneuvers.

We also have a player that uses ALL the ML fighting maneuvers, and the system worked perfectly with all of them.

I give your system 10 points!!!

Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 04:06:28 PM »
Excellent! Thanks for taking time to give your feedback!
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline Grimburgoth

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 09:30:23 AM »
We have been playing rolemaster for more then 10 years. We tried HARP but the combat system seemed flawed, especially after playing with DND 3.5 and DND 4. We are currently playing DND 4 and we don't like the system, so we are looking for a system that has elaborate character development and simple combat. So we are looking back at HARP again.

We tried some skirmishes with the SPAR system and to us it seems to have some flaws. I don't know if the flaws are directly related to HARP or SPAR but I will try to tell you what happened.

During our plays with DND 4, we have been come accustomed to the use of a battlemat, so we used it in the test of the SPAR.

There are several rulings within SPAR which are not totally clear:

Can you always elect to parry or dodge?
Or can you only parry when you have announced that your action is a melee attack?

Also we have noticed the following:

After the attack you specify the amount you want to parry. When you have enough OB to parry the whole attack this is not a big problem, but even then you will get players endlessly looking at the critical tables figuring out which critical they want to get with their character. It is even worse when using characters who don't have enough OB to cancel the whole attack. EG the rules don't specify that you must always parry with the full amount, resulting players again looking at the critical tables.

The retreat action is interresting, but when using a battlemat you get interesting side effects with characters facing a certain direction and thus retreating into the wrong way.

The followup option whould then not be used. As someone who retreated cannot move, they spend a round doing nothing. Which makes the attacker then attack someone else. This makes retreating very ineffective. But as you say in your text you use force the action to counter balance the +25 db retreat which in my opinion is not needed. I find the force the attack option to be to strong.

That is about it. Our conclusion is that SPAR is interesting but not fully developed. As for HARP, we find that combat takes to long and we are currently developing our own total conversion of the HARP system, including combat, skills, talents and professions.

Thanks for reading

Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 12:47:54 PM »
Grimburgoth-

Thanks for feedback! Let me see if I can address/clarify the issues you raise...

Under SPAR, Parry is an instantaneous combat action but requires the player to be 'ready to parry'. In other words, the player has to be in a position to make a normal parry with any positional disadvantages applied. This implies the player has a weapon ready or is able to assume the proper martial arts stance to make a parry. Casting a non-instantaneous spell or doing a non-combat action makes a player NOT ready to parry.

Dodge is a bit more forgiving - if you can move and haven't committed a disqualifying action - Retreat, Attack, or Parry - you may Dodge.

Retreat is allowed if you haven't dodged and can actually physically perform the retreat.

Additionally, if a character failed to declare an action but otherwise would be able to parry/attack (with either ready weapon or a martial arts skill) - their 'presumed' action for the round is "Yield".

Typically, if after actions are declared, I allow characters that have declared non-combat actions to cancel their action and default to "Yield" instead if its clear that an attack is coming their way - but that's my personal procedure rather than official HARP or SPAR rules. Players will sometimes think they have time/position to do something when a real person in a real situation would know they did not and would simply make ready for the attack.

I have always used Battlemats (for the thousand years I've been playing) but I tend to interpret position on the battlemat in what I believe is a commonsensical and relatively 'liberal' fashion - that is characters move in approximate amounts and I position the models in what seems a 'reasonable' fashion. I never bother to measure anything exactly and allow very liberal facing changes.

The Retreat Action should result in a character moving AWAY from the ATTACK or behind cover/obstacle. Nor does the character need to move exactly perpendicular to the nominal front of the attack but does need to cover 2 meters or step behind pillar, tree, etc. Typically, as GM I decide the logical retreat path (favoring the retreating character when possible). Under SPAR, a player attacked from the rear cannot retreat. A player attacked from the flank (only possible if engaged by two or more foes in the front and sides), would retreat away from the attacking group in a reasonable way and end up positioned facing the attackers in a reasonable way.

Reading the charts to decide how much to parry is perfectly fine (in my opinion) just don't let them hem and haw very long. We use HackNSlash and I have the charts essentially memorized and will often just tell the players - parry with 45 to avoid taking stun or bleeding - and you can then attack with the remaining 40. Anything to keep things moving. Originally, I used a rule that forced players to use any available parry to avoid an injury if possible - but that's less 'heroic' than letting a hero take a non-stunning injury to make a counterattack.

The dynamics of Retreat and Forcing the Action were done deliberately. Forcing the action is very effective and retreating is detrimental - realistically so. Characters moving back and forth is very realistic and adds a nice set of natural and dynamic tactical choices to the combat. The powerful fighter can force back enemies to achieve a better tactical position. It allows a character to force the enemy back, use the free round to cast a spell, change weapons, move to help a friend, etc. Retreating is bad thing - but it allows the character to live to fight another round. Potentially, the attacker will fumble the next round and suddenly they can counterattack and FORCE the other guy to retreat. This is the great advantage of SPAR, your character is being beaten back under a hail of aggressive attacks, but suddenly your foe falters either making a weak attack or better yet fumbles - your character can now explode with a full OB counterattack that rocks your foe back.

So the following tactical situations arise:

Foe is weak, you press - probably using all OB knowing the foe will have to use up their OB in Parry or be stunned and then it all goes down hill from there.

Foe is strong but situation is desperate - you press hoping a decent combat roll keeps your foe at least on the defensive.

Foe is strong or of unknown strength - you Yield and attempt to judge the foe's abilities before deciding on a better course of action.








It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline ondoheer

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 03:47:04 PM »
I have to add something, we also had that situation were characters wanted to look at the CT to determine how much dmg they wanted to recive, we dont use the H&S system but one really simplified dmg table i found in this forums:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7015.0

We found it a really easy task, fast to calculate and I have to say I put the players in a really tricky situation, being able to choose the right amount of OB to parry (there was one facing 5 enemies) was what saved the day, they let the bad guys give them A and B criticals in order to be able to stay alive for one more round waiting for help.

Maybe if you try that simplified damage table it will go smoother.

Offline johnkzin

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 02:41:06 AM »
Hm.  I don't think I'd let the player know how much they need to parry.  When someone attacks you, don't know until after you've committed whether or not you need to parry/block hard, or if you can get away with parrying/blocking soft.  If you guessed wrong, you get tagged ... even if you're good at it.

I might allow someone to make some sort of tactics roll to size up their competition, and get a general idea of "his weapon skill is x% of yours" (50% of yours, same as yours, 150% of yours).  That might give them an overall idea of how hard/soft they'll need to parry, but that's about it.

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 05:40:55 AM »
Is there an easier way to print out the rules other than as an html doc.?
A military solution isn't the only answer, just one of the better ones.
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Offline ondoheer

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 09:00:20 AM »
johnkzin, I think the whole idea of the spar rules was that you could decide how much to parry according to how much dmg you would receive, and understanding it as a combat reflex, still I think im going to add some kind of # of ranks requires to fight amongst a certain number of individuals, the character I taled about managed to do that becouse he had over 40 ranks in his weapon skill, Still I dont agree that a regular newbie should be able to divide his parry between 4  foes.

Right Wing Wacko, I copied the text in the HTML to a word file and went perfect.

Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 10:07:09 AM »
Correct. The whole point of SPAR is that Parry is a combat reflex rather than a tactical decision.

I didn't limit the number of parries simply because characters with less OB should run out of OB with which to parry fairly rapidly - each parry subtracts from the character's OB and so someone with only OB 50 would have trouble parrying more than one or two foes anyway. But I have no real objection to imposing limits based on number of ranks.
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline RandalThor

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 07:46:05 PM »
I have always used Battlemats (for the thousand years I've been playing) but I tend to interpret position on the battlemat in what I believe is a commonsensical and relatively 'liberal' fashion - that is characters move in approximate amounts and I position the models in what seems a 'reasonable' fashion. I never bother to measure anything exactly and allow very liberal facing changes.

I agree with this definately. I do not play miniature games and do not want to. RPGs are too abstract to try and be so literal, it detracts from the game, I think.

Reading the charts to decide how much to parry is perfectly fine (in my opinion) just don't let them hem and haw very long. We use HackNSlash and I have the charts essentially memorized and will often just tell the players - parry with 45 to avoid taking stun or bleeding - and you can then attack with the remaining 40. Anything to keep things moving. Originally, I used a rule that forced players to use any available parry to avoid an injury if possible - but that's less 'heroic' than letting a hero take a non-stunning injury to make a counterattack.

This I would not allow. I feel the less the players know about the numbers the more realistic their actions will be. To be honest, I wouldn't mind running a game where the players didn't really know the rules or barely knew the rules. I would much rather they make decisions on character personalities combined with the situation and feel that too much is because of the "numbers." I think concentrating on the numbers limits description, which I feel is paramount to a fun gaming session. I hate to rely upon the dice to dictate the fun!

Retreating is bad thing - but it allows the character to live to fight another round. Potentially, the attacker will fumble the next round and suddenly they can counterattack and FORCE the other guy to retreat.

This I don't agree with. Retreating is NOT necessarily a bad thing. Well, OK if you use the word Retreat....... I think a much better way to put this is "Giving Ground" because Retreating is full-on trying to get out of the fight completely. Maybe in fencing it means what you are saying (I only took it for 1 semester, and that was a long time ago), but not in REAL combat. Giving ground is something combatants do to try and gain an advantage because the current situation favors the opponent. And anyone relying upon the opponent to make a critical mistake has already lost (not the same as trying to force a mistake). I think you are trying to mix too much of your fencing experiences into rules for combat that is nothing like fencing. No nice, flat mat beneath your feet in the vast majority of combats, and no ref to say you didn't (or did, I forget) lunge before you attacked.

Now, I do like some of this SPAR system and think it can be an improvement over what is there, especially if you keep the combat rounds so short. (3 seconds, right?!?) Personally, I prefer combat rounds to be more in the 5-6 seconds range, up to 10 seconds even. This is to reflect and allow for Combat Perception, which I prefer over most initiative models. This way a character who is not supremely fast, but excellent at reading the flow of combat can, at the very least, make up the difference. Example: Jon is a fighter (Initiative/Speed: 10, Combat Perception: 110) who has engaged in combat with Bill the rogue (Initiative/Speed: 18, Combat Perception: 85). You can roll their combat perceptions to see who has the better read on the situation and the one with the worst read declares their actions first, but then everyone goes in initiative/speed order (which can be a roll too, or not if you perfer). Or, the combat perception roll will generate a bonus to the characters initiative/speed base number which will generate their total initiative for the round, but then I would still have the character with the worst initiative declare their actions first to reflect that the ones who got the better read on the situation as the advantage. That one is kind of a double smacker though, so I would be careful in instituting that one.




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Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 11:41:15 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts.

Quote
This I don't agree with. Retreating is NOT necessarily a bad thing. Well, OK if you use the word Retreat....... I think a much better way to put this is "Giving Ground" because Retreating is full-on trying to get out of the fight completely. Maybe in fencing it means what you are saying (I only took it for 1 semester, and that was a long time ago), but not in REAL combat. Giving ground is something combatants do to try and gain an advantage because the current situation favors the opponent. And anyone relying upon the opponent to make a critical mistake has already lost (not the same as trying to force a mistake). I think you are trying to mix too much of your fencing experiences into rules for combat that is nothing like fencing. No nice, flat mat beneath your feet in the vast majority of combats, and no ref to say you didn't (or did, I forget) lunge before you attacked.

Hmm... I use Retreat in the technical sense of moving away from the threat. In military parlance, 'retreat' generally means moving back in an orderly fashion - hopefully to a better tactical position but usually it is simply a necessary move to avoid a grave threat. Sure, sometimes one uses euphemisms like 'Fall Back', 'Pull Back', 'Giving Ground' or whatever. The term Full Retreat is used to describe orderly flight as opposed to Flee, Panicked Flight or Full Flight which are not orderly. In SPAR, the Retreat Action indicates the character needed to fall back, give ground, step back and away, take cover or whatever to reduce or avoid an injury.

Moving back to gain tactical advantage or lure an opponent into an overly aggressive attack is a well established principle of individual and group combat. Under SPAR (and HARP or other ICE games), a character can typically simply move backwards as a normal combat action and still fight as normal - their opponent is allowed to simply follow up and fight as normal as well. I considered a Feigned Retreat Action - but HARP Martial Law provides for a False Disengage Action which seemingly encompasses that tactical type of gamesmanship and the existing action seemed good enough.

REAL combat? What do you mean? Not to be overly snarky, but I happen to know an expert knife and stick fighter, several black belts in Iaido (Japanese sword fighting), and I, myself, train in Aikido including with the Jo (short staff). I can assure you that stepping back (aka retreat) is something one does in virtually all individual fighting styles. Typically, it is better to avoid an attack by stepping around the attack and moving into the attacker's space to counterattack - but that is not always possible.

Again. Thanks for the good discussion points.

Robin

It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 05:46:11 AM »
Right Wing Wacko, I copied the text in the HTML to a word file and went perfect.

Ok...cool... thanks! ;D
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"Note #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game."- markc

Offline RandalThor

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2008, 02:02:31 AM »
SNARKY. Love it! Will steal it!  ;D

It was I that was saying that retreating isn't necessarily a bad thing. Avoiding getting ones head chopped off is not bad (in my book). So I guess I was objecting to the concept that in retreating your only hope is the opponent fumbling (or your friends helping out - which is a good thing). The reason retreating is a viable option is because most people (yes, now we have to take into consiceration non-people, which make it extra fun) let the retreating individual go because they are no longer a threat. Of course, situation dictates, but barring special circumstances, most people retreating get away. Why run the risk of getting hurt by someone already beat?

Y'know, as I write this I realize this is one of the big reasons I prefer more abstract gaming to detailed-ruled gaming. Because then decisions are not made by what the numbers and exact actions state, but by what the individuals in the situation are feeling, thinking, and their specific goals.

Sorry, got caught up in semantics. Happens to the best of us, and since I am far from the best...... ;)

I have been rethinking my round lengths as the times where I was jumped went really fast. Maybe 3 seconds is about right......
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2008, 09:12:50 AM »
Ah. Okay. I see what you meant. No problem. Vagaries of forum speak...

Good luck!

Robin
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

Offline Gideon

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2008, 09:27:02 AM »
I was playing with the SPAR system and I created this flowchart...very basic, but I wanted to see if I captured the rules?  Once I have it right I wanted to do an Advanced combat flowchart. for a two sided print out:  JPEG images :)

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jsu7w3kYaLVOkXpjMfCF_w

Offline jurasketu

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Re: SPAR Feedback Wanted
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2008, 02:18:52 PM »
Gideon-

Cool. That looks correct. I would clarify that instantaneous Elective Spell Defenses (Bladeturn, Deflect, etc) can be chosen and resolved after the attack roll has been made but before other elective defenses are applied.

Robin
It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

When in fear, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!