Topic: Loremaster

[Walt]

That small guy had backing from the royal court of Spain, hardly a "small guy". And he wasnt going to discover America, that was an accident. And he wasn't (primarily)curious, he did it for profit [...]

Agreed. And now put thin into relation to the powers, both economically and magical, to the ressources of the elvish traders of Namar-Tol (or Eidolon, or the Imperial Western trade fleet, or any of the other so far not named trading organisations).

[TomOBedlam]

That small guy had backing from the royal court of Spain, hardly a "small guy". And he wasnt going to discover America, that was an accident. And he wasn't (primarily)curious, he did it for profit [...]

Agreed. And now put thin into relation to the powers, both economically and magical, to the ressources of the elvish traders of Namar-Tol (or Eidolon, or the Imperial Western trade fleet, or any of the other so far not named trading organisations).

Indeed. But then consider how many undiscovered areas there are. And the fact that "Haunted" is a very real state for many areas in this world. It's quite likely that there are areas still unexploited that has a better risk/reward than an island off the coast of nowhere.

That beeing said - I always had some problems with Yarthraak. Yes, they did a lot of charity work, healing and stuff. But how did they describe the religion? "Oh we want you to stop believing in the sunny woman that heals people and instead start worshipping the sea-dragon that eats people. Here, have another cookie."

Logically, I understand that they must have had a pretty good party line, since they were elected (Elect a leader? How do you know if someone is fit to lead if they dont have royal blood? Heresy!) by the people. But what was it?

[Walt]

Thanks Tom, you are expressing my thoughts! We discussed it in another tread some time ago. Check it out, it?s still active. http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=6946.0

[metallion]

Regarding Ulor, few would go near it.  Why?  Because no one who does ever returns.  And yet, this doesn't signal to someone that Something Bad lurks there.  And why?  Because there's a honking big essence focus surrounding it, meaning the waters are probably not very friendly.  After enough shipwrecks, cartographers start putting warnings up that the waters aren't safe to travel in.

[metallion]

OK - I'll bite:
Just who are the 'good guys' in your games?
And I don't mean a force the size of the party of (a handful or two) PCs; I mean big groups.

Glen Cook is one of my favorite authors.  "Good Guys" in Kulthea are about as common as they are in the Black Company or Dread Empire novels -- which is to say very rare indeed.  Part of my challenge to my players is to decide who they regard as "Good Guys"... and why.  Another part of my challenge to my players is coming to grips with the dirty underbelly that any great undertaking must have.

Another author who strongly informs my treatment of heroes and villains is Jacqueline Carey, particularly Banewreaker and Godslayer.  

[metallion]

Regarding bands, I do have bards wandering around Kulthea with very old instruments -- electric guitars and the like, powered by sun gems and the like -- so that I can relate more than a few heavy metal songs to the campaign and to characters.

I have written a filk of Sympathy for the Devil in Lorgalis' voice.  I think I posted the link a while ago, but I can do so again.  I recall that it got a laugh from Terry.

[Walt]

Easy Metallion, there is not to much of an Essence focus around it. A small one yes, and what about? There are some much bigger focis round Jaiman. Not ro mention the mayor flows. For sure we can discuss the shard of the original Ahrenthrok crystal - but please, only after it was placed on Ulor.
For the "why to go there" look only at the card. All major sea trading buisness has to pass by Ulor. Do I want as merchant prince safe trading routes? I think so, I want to know where the problems for my trad are located. Same for neibouing countries. Like Helyssa.
Than tell me how this island will feed more than 200000 Lugkroki. No, in this the setting of an occupied Ly-Aran and Xa?ar, like now at least developed, is much more realistic.
And again, like I wrote above, it?s easy not to care for the details and bring into the discussion teh all-enslavin overpowerd super evil sailor eating ship wrecking demon, spell, essaence foci, dimensional rift or whatever. And that?s fine, no worries!
I only try to give my players a more realistic setting (still with all the over-powered explainitions, but scarcely used)

[Elrik]

"That beeing said - I always had some problems with Yarthraak. Yes, they did a lot of charity work, healing and stuff. But how did they describe the religion? "Oh we want you to stop believing in the sunny woman that heals people and instead start worshipping the sea-dragon that eats people. Here, have another cookie.""

People will believe anything when presented with enough facts. If Yarthraak is in their face all the time, they are constantly doing things to help, and the takes that "Dragon eating thingie" and turns it around to "We are here to preserve you, your way of life and your Lands. We help to save you from the Dragon. Your faith will secure Our great master..."

To top it all off they are an ignorant folk. They are not Dumb by any means yet most have no education. Most grew up with Yarthraak. He is as much a part of their lives as is the Sun God. His priests come and heal, help and explain and that grows faith. Maybe the folk don't hold faith in the God, but I will bet you they hold faith in the Priests.

Death Gods are not the problem, it is what the Priests are willing to give you to follow that Death God. If your back is nearly broken every day so that you can feed your family, you would fall at the feet of the first person that gave you a tool to make your life easier. Who can complain with a bit less stress, more free time, and perhaps a better life.

... I for one would love a cookie

[metallion]

Major foci do things like make people fail to notice the island in the center of it altogether.  Minor foci can create difficult weather (particularly if someone is masking the activity of the crystal as a naturally occurring phonomena.)  Merchants wanting safe routes know to steer clear of Ulor, and the space between it and Jaiman proper is plenty large enough for that.

On the question of feeding Lugroki, I think you forget that Kulthea is labrynthine.  I imagine that the extensive tunnels under Ulor required to house all those Lugroki also house things that Lugroki eat -- probably big things, at that, allowing some Darwinian action at the same time.

[Elrik]

Who is to say that Lorgalis doesn't have trading happening with other countries? Pirates would be a perfect contact. But, when the country you are trying to dominate sends out ships, you do what you have to.

if you are in a ship and see a small fishing village on the island, do you stop? Do you care? Is it worth it? Eventually someone would stop, the people are curiously unfriendly and you leave. The visitors unwilling to leave are dealt with. Their ships taken and crews eaten. Changes are that some actually do some minor trade.

Now the place looks like a waste of time. Do sea captains have time to ponder why some local kingdom hasn't snapped up that island? Not always.

The more I think on this, the more I think the Absence of forces makes the island look all that more suspicious, and a good captain is paranoid enough to not sacrifice his ship on a hunch. Those that to investigate are never seen again - "Lost at Sea, poor buggers."

We all know that there is something there, but not what it is. Everyone that has investigated doesn't return. Lets not go there!

[Elrik]

I thought Ulor was shrouded in mist, not hidden from view?

[vroomfogle]

As put forth in Xa-ar, everyone knows the region is ruled by the Lord of Ulor, but no one has seen him, or been to Ulor.   So I don't think anyone would consider it abandoned or absent of life.   It is shrouded in mystery for sure.   The Quaidu are known to be from there, that alone would be a good reason not to stop in for a visit.

Note that in the Jaiman book there is a minor flow in the area of Ulor, no focus.   But in the old world flow map in the atlas addendum Ulor is surrounded by a barrier/focus.

I think the flows and treacherous waters is the best explanation why people wouldn't casually explore Ulor and steer clear from it.   People that are in the know (e.g. Loremasters) steer clear from it because they know of the dangers.

[yammahoper]

In my world Ulor is an active trading power with a known despotic king, though no one knows the king is really Lorgalis (and really he isn't, but an Android Lorgalis can posses if needed).  Slave trade and weapons and mercs and an active black market are active in Ulor, but the isle is a dangerous place to sail to because of treacherous waters, dense fog and a wandering essence flow.  Ulor retains a strong trade surplus, meaning more goes out bring wealth back than the other way around.

For me, the release of so called cannon materials has been so slow that my SW doesn't look much like the cannon.  I have been running campaigns in it since the first box release, with Vog Mur, Shade of the Sinking Plain and The Iron Wind being pre-campaigns that were sometimes haphazardly woven into the SW when it was released (prior to that those settings were distant places in ME).

I hope Terry releases lots of stuff over the years so I can happily read it, yet I will never worry if my game fits the cannon.  Some of the new evolving cannon may be inserted into my game, but I wont break the continutity of a world I have spent 20+ years building just cuz someone elses thinks I should.

[Elrik]

I doubt any of us could make you run the game the way we wanted you to yammahoper.

1300 guys show up on your door step on game night and glare menacingly through a window. Each with a backpack of stuff we think you should use. Like that is going to happen.

Massive game on Yammerhoper's front lawn!!!

[Walt]

For me, the release of so called cannon materials has been so slow that my SW doesn't look much like the cannon.  I have been running campaigns in it since the first box release, with Vog Mur, Shade of the Sinking Plain and The Iron Wind being pre-campaigns that were sometimes haphazardly woven into the SW when it was released (prior to that those settings were distant places in ME).

Same for me, Yamma, exactly 20 years of running SW campaigns gives you some time to think things through. How did you solve Ly-Aran? In your setting their is probably an ongoing trade relation (over land) with Ly-Aran? Or did you raise the big frontier, the big wall between the cutivated former U-Lyshak and the barbaric Ly-Aran?

[yammahoper]

For me, the release of so called cannon materials has been so slow that my SW doesn't look much like the cannon.  I have been running campaigns in it since the first box release, with Vog Mur, Shade of the Sinking Plain and The Iron Wind being pre-campaigns that were sometimes haphazardly woven into the SW when it was released (prior to that those settings were distant places in ME).

Same for me, Yamma, exactly 20 years of running SW campaigns gives you some time to think things through. How did you solve Ly-Aran? In your setting their is probably an ongoing trade relation (over land) with Ly-Aran? Or did you raise the big frontier, the big wall between the cutivated former U-Lyshak and the barbaric Ly-Aran?

I will have to get out books and old notes and look stuff up to answer the questions. 

My early campaigns started in Jaiman, but then moved to Emer and Galt and whatnot.  I was a big fan of Sea Law then.  Going back about three years, my last SW campaign ended (cenetered around the secret of Iloura  seperating a part of her soul into a minor focus that formed a new Goddess.  Iloura did this so she would not forget/be effected by the great curse of forgetting, but she was, and while all her memories lay dormant in the new minor Goddess, Iloura could not remember that.  Now enter a PC who discovered the sunk Temple in the focus and becomes the first priest of this new Earth Mother, who is drawn to KeshTaKai by the power of her unknown love, and one long, just over two year campaign started rolling).  SM has been my ICE game of choice for sometime now, but what I do recall in Jaiman...

Salaris was a collection of constantly fueding city states.  The Haid ruled the northern forest.  Lorgalis army had swept up the border of Rhakhan were it was stopped by the power of the Crown (Prince Kier was PC in my game, turned NPC after the crown was won).  Previous adventures had shattered the Duraniki and their ancient esseance machine that allowed them to enslave the Talath.  Zor was mostly a waste land but a goup of outsiders had set up a strong outpost there, allied with Rhakhan after driving back an attempt to advance south by the Dragon Lords Lugrok armies (the out post is ran by agents of a house in Human space.  They seek a method to transfer human conscience/soul into android bodies and like the cylons, beam back their conscience if harmed/destroyed.  They have succeed but are trapped on Kulthea, the portal they came in destroyed in their arrival).  Lythis was by far the most adventured in are and we had well developed laws and families and guilds and the like to play with in that city state.

In the climax in our crown adventure, Andraax was "killed" and his soul split into seven pieces.  A campaign followed were each PC was possesed by a fragment of soul and sought/were drawn to the other three, which had inhabited some very BAD people I might add. 

I hope you can see by the above examples just how different from cannon my game went.  Yet I and my players had lots of fun, which is the point.  SW remains IMO a great canvas for all types and levels of adventure.  So keep up the creative good work Terry.

[DonMoody]

"Good Guys" in Kulthea ... very rare indeed.

I am not sure I fully understood your answer.

When you run Kulthea, there are no 'good guys'? or at least, no 'organization' that would be considered 'good'?

Yes, I understand many (most? all?) organizations put their own best interest (however they define that) above altruistic ideas.
However, on Earth, altruism is a common virtue in many cultures/religions.

DonMoody

[metallion]

When you run Kulthea, there are no 'good guys'? or at least, no 'organization' that would be considered 'good'?

That's the problem with the passive voice:  it occludes who the actor is.  There are lots of "organizations" that would be considered "good"... by someone.  Whether or not you would consider them good depends on how you make that call and what you know about the person you're considering.

To your average Zanarian, Zanar is good.  He is the author of all virtue, raiser of the dead, scourge of the unjust.

To your average Scalite, Scalu is good.  He is the God of Wisdom; and people worshippers who go insane do so because they sought understanding they could not handle.

To your average Lankaan, Klussys is good -- without his sacrifice of his living heart, all the world would have died in cold and darkness long ago.

To your average Orhanian, the Lords of Orhan are good, no matter how many sailors Shaal drowns.  Or how many inquisitions or crusades the United Church of Orhan might undertake.

Someone might think the Loremasters are "good."  What if they learned that the reason technology is so stunted is because they send assasins out to kill scientists who research technologies that might make it possible to go into the East?  Or sabotage, say, Namarian submarine experiments that would reveal too many mysteries if the ocean floor could be observed?

Someone might think Andraax is "good."  What if they learned that he's just copacetic with destroying all of Kulthea under certain circumstances?

However, on Earth, altruism is a common virtue in many cultures/religions.

Earth religions and cultures provide all sorts of examples of how often altruism is nothing more than a disguising of one's own interests.

"Beware of altrusim, for it is based on self-deception, the root of all evil" -- paraphrased from Robert Heinlein

[DonMoody]

Earth religions and cultures provide all sorts of examples of how often altruism is nothing more than a disguising of one's own interests.

I think you meant to write "how often claims of altruism are" instead of "how often altruism is".

Anyone can make any claim.
That doesn't mean it is true.
You can't say 'that table is a chair' then say 'I serve my meals on a chair' and have that claim mean anything about chairs (or maybe not even about tables).

Also, I was asking from an absolute, not POV, perspective.
Yes, there are few (IF ANY) who would say "my organization is evil".
Using Earth examples, the regimes of Stalin & Hitler - both were brutal, horrible 'organizations' which any objective observer would be hard pressed to not classify as 'evil'.
Of course, neither of them saw themselfves that way (which is irrelevant to the reality of the situation - they were evil regardless of any claims to the contrary).

I am still not sure I fully understand your comments but, from what I've inferred from them, your Kulthea is gray & black and primarily greys of the darker shades.
But I am not sure I am interpretting that correctly either.

DonMoody

[mocking bird]

Also, I was asking from an absolute, not POV, perspective.

Only the Sith think in absolutes.

Anyway just an unofficial mod poke before this gets too out of hand, Hitler and Stalin references are usually a precursor of that.  The Unlife being Evil, or something like that, dealt extensively with Good and Evil in Shadow World and did toe the line of official moderation and violating the ROC.