Author Topic: High-level HARP anyone?  (Read 4996 times)

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Offline munchy

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High-level HARP anyone?
« on: April 19, 2008, 09:07:15 AM »
Hi,

I was wondering what experiences there are out there with HARP in higher levels, i.e. above tenth. How dangerous is combat at that level? Are there big changes in balance between different professions? How are magic users working out in high levels? Are fighters still interesting to play?
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Offline Defendi

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 09:48:46 AM »
My big experience is that combats are much like they were at lower levels, at least with the bad guys I've put them up against.  About 10th level being a single-classed spellcaster is a bit problematic, because if you keep raising your spells, you're just adding ranks you can't scale to, since the bonus gets diminishing returns, but the penalty for scaling doesn't.  You can build out laterally, but the cleric in my group is a little sad about it because he wants to stay a single-classed cleric and he hasn't run out of spells yet, but he's developed the one's he's excited about, so gaining levels doesn't do much for him anymore.  If his character concept allowed multiclassing, it wouldn't be an issue.

I've been playing with some ideas for a solution, but the game is on hold at the moment (we're between playtests) so I haven't been trying very hard.  :)

All my other characters in the group seem to be doing well.  There's a lot of multiclassing in my group, though.  :)

The penalty for scaling thing is the only hurdle I've noticed.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 09:57:09 AM »
The penalty for scaling thing is the only hurdle I've noticed.

There's the Enhancement Talent in CoM which allows scaling penalties to be reduced to -5 per 2 PPs of scaling on a single spell. It does cost 30 DPs, so not for the faint of heart. Also Potency for Elemental bolt and ball spells.

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Offline Thos

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 01:29:04 PM »
I can't really talk about spell casters at high levels, as I've run and played in a low magic setting. However, from my experience if you use a fixed development point system everything stays quite exciting. There are always talents to purchase and non favored skills. I've seen that as long as the GM is thinking ahead the problems are very few.
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Offline jurasketu

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 12:21:12 AM »
My current group of six characters is 14+ level (Thaumaturge, Warrior Mage, Monk/Warrior Mage, Ranger/Shadowblade, Harper/Mystic and a Vivamancer). We've actually been having more fun really. I recently spent several sessions running the Selkie's Secret from Guild Adventurer #2. I was able to keep the basic plot outline and role playing bits completely intact - I just increased the levels/power/numbers of all the bad guys to make the combat portions sufficiently challenging. There was plenty of difficult fighting for the fighters, scouting, spellcasting, etc. And tons of great role playing.

I think that high level characters who have chosen a sufficiently broad set of skills (instead of being overly focused) can come up with very creative and bold plans that produce really heroic battles and entertaining outcomes.

One of the things I like to do with high level characters (who typically have achieved at least some measure of fame) - is that they are invariably asked to help right wrongs, investigate weird goings on, rescue innocents, etc. So its actually easier to setup adventures since the characters will know important government officials and feel obligated to "help" when asked. As an added challenge they will have difficulty being anonymous unless they really work at disguises and acting. The characters, being overconfident, will usually commit a few hilarious blunders which will require expert play to overcome. While trying to do the adventure, associates of their previously defeated enemies are often trying to assassinate the famous characters, which provides a nice patina of heightened nervousness, paranoia, and the occasional ambush or poisoning encounter.

Our campaign also has strong law enforcement and ethics - so the characters HAVE to behave generally within the law - and can't just do "anything they want" whatever their ethical disposition might be. My current group is particularly ethical and always tries to do "good" - which provides additional challenges in itself.

In sum, my experience with "high level" HARP has been great.

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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 08:40:39 AM »
My big experience is that combats are much like they were at lower levels, at least with the bad guys I've put them up against.  About 10th level being a single-classed spellcaster is a bit problematic, because if you keep raising your spells, you're just adding ranks you can't scale to, since the bonus gets diminishing returns, but the penalty for scaling doesn't.  You can build out laterally, but the cleric in my group is a little sad about it because he wants to stay a single-classed cleric and he hasn't run out of spells yet, but he's developed the one's he's excited about, so gaining levels doesn't do much for him anymore.  If his character concept allowed multiclassing, it wouldn't be an issue.

I've been playing with some ideas for a solution, but the game is on hold at the moment (we're between playtests) so I haven't been trying very hard.  :)

All my other characters in the group seem to be doing well.  There's a lot of multiclassing in my group, though.  :)

The penalty for scaling thing is the only hurdle I've noticed.

This is something I can't seem to agree with in Harp and I think Rolemaster was right to begin with. Why can't a level 10 Mage scale his spells better than a level 3 Mage? One would think at Level 10 he has mastered the art of scaling to a degree. For example:

At Level 3 he would have 12 ranks in a spell. If he has Elemental Bolt which is 4 PP as its base he could scale it to Huge if he wanted to at a -40. At level 10 he may have 25 ranks in Elemental bolt but to scale to a Huge is still a -40. Sure he may have a higher skill bonus but once you reach 20 ranks, leveling the spells reap very little benefits. With the weapons the number of ranks can get you access to certain Combat Styles such as Multiple Strike. So why don't spells have this. I think a convention to be able to scale a spell based on your level and ranks would be a good thing for a mage.

Offline munchy

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 09:08:33 AM »
My guess would that this is meant to offset the danger of the spellusers becoming too powerful in comparison to the fighters. Lowering the scaling penalties would make the scaling too easy, too powerful and spell casting too fast as you could also afford to reduce the casting time in addition to scaling. I didn't think of those combat styles and actions which are a really good point and make fighters quite interesting in higher levels, especially when attacking multiple foes at once. Really nice.
So, higher level HARP really seems to offer quite some opportunities and possibilities. Excellent.

Keep those experiences coming, please! :)
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Offline kasalin

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 10:09:23 AM »
I've looked at adding a talent which would allow users to reduce their scaling penalty by 1 for every rank above 20 in a spell.  I would make the cost something like 40 DP and require that the character be of a certain level before allowing it to be taken.  The talent would apply to any spell the caster knows.  It would not reduce the time taken to cast the spell or affect the PP's required.  Haven't tested it much, so not sure how unbalancing it would be. 
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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 10:28:33 AM »
Perhaps then scaling it down a little might be a happy medium. I agree. Remove the scaling penalties too much and the mage is unstoppable. However it does seem a bit odd the Mage profession has not automatic benefits like the Fighter does. For example the fighter can add a +10 to any weapon skill on the first 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc. Maybe a house rule so a mage can add a +10 to any spell every 3rd level starting at level 1. Also another thought is perhaps a mage can reduce the scaling penalities by -5 every number of levels, maybe every 3rd level or something. This doesn't effect the penalties for casting faster.

Even at higher levels I think the mage is weaker than the fighter but the mage is not built for the front lines and is meant to be in the back, protected by the fighters and bowmen casting whatever spells he can and have the time to cast them.

Offline Defendi

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 06:43:22 PM »
I was thinking of not charging for scaling to your current level.  So a 10th level mage trying to scale  a 1st level spell to 12th, would only take a -10, but I haven't run the numbers.
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Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 07:35:52 PM »
To me the scaling seems to be correct.

Just because you have  l10 character with 33 ranks in a spell, doesn't mean that every spell is cast at max 33 ranks...
A elemental bolt scaled up (say 15 ranks), would suffer the penalty but since he has 33 ranks, he gets the extra 18 rank bonus.

The only thing I would change is that the spells scaling penalty is not -5 per rank, but -5 per rank up to 10 ranks, then -2 per rank up to 20 ranks, then -1 onwards... the same as spell casting. That way the high level caster is the a better caster...

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Offline Defendi

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 08:28:19 PM »
That was another idea I was toying with.  It just seemed like too much math at the table.
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Offline WoeRie

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2008, 02:47:16 AM »
My highest mage is level 11. And so far I like the scaling as is. You don't have these totally overpowered high level Mages as you have in other games (e.g. RM2). As far as I see a mage is still as powerfull as a simple fighter and the balance seems to be perfect (at least nobody in my group is complaining). I don't know how it is in even higher levels, but so far I think it is much better balanced than RM2 or D&D.

And you should always think that a higher level caster has also access to Spell Adder and PP Adder.

Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 10:06:54 AM »
To me the scaling seems to be correct.

Just because you have  l10 character with 33 ranks in a spell, doesn't mean that every spell is cast at max 33 ranks...
A elemental bolt scaled up (say 15 ranks), would suffer the penalty but since he has 33 ranks, he gets the extra 18 rank bonus.

I can see a small trade off when it comes to ranking the spell and the scaling itself. At a level 3 a possible bonus is 80 to a spell. At level 10 a possible bonus is a 105, maybe higher if he specialized in the spell. This shows a +25 in training in casting that spell. But in the end the mage gets nothing really special in return for it. Just a +25 to cast. The fighter gets a +10 every certain number of levels and based on ranks gets to perform other abilities. The mage is still casting with the same scaling abilities with no other benefits other than a possible Spell Adder or PP multiplier which is a nice to have but cannot compare to what a fighter gets for his higher levels. At higher levels the fighter is more powerful in concept than the mage.

I have crunched a few numbers and it seems giving a mage a +10 at ever 5th level to one spell (must be different each time) and a -5 to all scaling penalities every 5th level doesn't make the mage too powerful. Putting everything together, this would be like giving a mage at level 10 a +20 in a few spells, something a fighter would already have in a few weapons. To me a fighter learns his weapons easier than a mage learns his spells. Sure, maybe the learning spells is harder but one could argue the fighter and the pure mage are training experts in the fields and no one is better, hence both show a masterlike quality to the profession as a Thief would show in subterfuge skills.

Again, I'm just arguing for, but I'm interesting in hearing the arguments against since I'm toying with this idea and would like to hear both sides. :)

Offline Thos

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2008, 12:30:52 PM »
I like your thinking, Monk! It sounds quite reasonable to me as well. I would also be interested in hearing what the arguments against such a proposal would be.
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Offline bunny

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2008, 08:00:00 PM »
To me the scaling seems to be correct.

Just because you have  l10 character with 33 ranks in a spell, doesn't mean that every spell is cast at max 33 ranks...
A elemental bolt scaled up (say 15 ranks), would suffer the penalty but since he has 33 ranks, he gets the extra 18 rank bonus.

I can see a small trade off when it comes to ranking the spell and the scaling itself. At a level 3 a possible bonus is 80 to a spell. At level 10 a possible bonus is a 105, maybe higher if he specialized in the spell. This shows a +25 in training in casting that spell. But in the end the mage gets nothing really special in return for it. Just a +25 to cast. The fighter gets a +10 every certain number of levels and based on ranks gets to perform other abilities. The mage is still casting with the same scaling abilities with no other benefits other than a possible Spell Adder or PP multiplier which is a nice to have but cannot compare to what a fighter gets for his higher levels. At higher levels the fighter is more powerful in concept than the mage.

I have crunched a few numbers and it seems giving a mage a +10 at ever 5th level to one spell (must be different each time) and a -5 to all scaling penalities every 5th level doesn't make the mage too powerful. Putting everything together, this would be like giving a mage at level 10 a +20 in a few spells, something a fighter would already have in a few weapons. To me a fighter learns his weapons easier than a mage learns his spells. Sure, maybe the learning spells is harder but one could argue the fighter and the pure mage are training experts in the fields and no one is better, hence both show a masterlike quality to the profession as a Thief would show in subterfuge skills.

Again, I'm just arguing for, but I'm interesting in hearing the arguments against since I'm toying with this idea and would like to hear both sides. :)


I leave it as is - although I think it depends slightly on how you play. In our games, high level mages nearly all have PP adders (not really the "possible" adder you mention) and this makes a very big difference to the sums, imo).

To me that's the solution within the rules - make the "create PP adder spell" (the exact name has slipped my mind for some reason) commonly available and nearly all 10th level mages will have a +3PP adder or better - making their spells significantly easier to scale up, cheaper to cast and quicker.

The highest we got to was level 14 from memory - in my opinion, the mages were just starting to outstrip the fighters in raw power (since they could comfotably scale their elemental bolts up to huge pretty easily which are hard to defend against and can be made pretty likely to kill)

Offline jurasketu

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 11:59:39 PM »
That would be Magestaff in CoM. It can be used to make a Power Point Adder and/or a Spell Adder. Very powerful - and a MUST for any spellcaster.

Of course, the Thaumaturge in my campaign manufacturers (among other things) Deflect Spell Rings scaled to Reflect Spell with 50 charges and Deflections Rings Scaled to -100 and Mass Deflection with 50 charges. Sure. She has 36 ranks in Imbue Charge and 32 ranks in Power Projection - but its been great fun. Every member of the party now has one of each. Simple Elementalists don't stand a chance no matter how powerful.

The charged items are Mighty Indeed so your campaign needs to be really magic oriented or unbalanced it will be.

Harpers and Mystics - those are the dangerous ones...
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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 05:21:58 AM »
Ah... I didn't know how the Power Point adders worked until now. Yeah I can see how the Power Point adders defeat the idea of scaling the spells any other way.

Offline fallenone

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2008, 04:34:02 AM »
We're playing an Al Qadim campaign (arabic setting with Genies and flying carpets instead of dragons) for one and a half year now every character starting at level 1. Today most of the group is slightly above level 10 and the game is not that diversified like it was in the beginning.

First I've to say we like tactical combat a lot. So combat maneuvers like Charge, Weapon Bind, Powerstrike, Press&Melee are in heavy use. Thus we had a very high body count which means the group started once with 6 mages and one rogue. Most of the mages died by stupid mistakes for example got eaten by giant lizards or  were forced to marry an high level Gen and were added to his harem. Players learned a lot and built their new characters in a tactical way which can be described as powergaming. HARP allows that if the GM doesn't start adding hard restrictions.

So today some players have their third of fourth character and they tend to be very specialized and combine spells in an effective manner which is the main problem and the feeling of not being balanced anymore. So there are two mages left. One is kind of an Elementalist who specialized in Air Form, Elemental Aura, Thunderclap and Counterspell. A very deadly combination ;) The other one pushed his sleep spell so hard that any kind of NPC who ever get to roll against needs to have 96+ regardless how much RRs he's got if not immune to sleep. In addition he is good at Fire Nerves, Counterspell and Dispell Magic. Of course both mages assist the party with Bladeturns. The rest of the party is a Shadowblade with outstanding ambush skills using "Shadowport" often, a Harper who maxed "Charm" and being a good fighter, a Cleric able to bless, heal and resurrect the party and being the fighter with the highest melee damage value and finally the rogue being the second sneaky character. No one is dual classed because it's a loss of effectivity.

In HARP you can specialize in a single skill a lot and as NicholasHMCaldwe said there are talents for mages which are in heavy use for spells that need to be scaled up often like Counterspell. The possibility to cast very powerful spells at low levels is a feature of HARP which is missing in D&D or RM but sets the system aside and gets it incomparable. I really love the idea of being able to scale spells but it has a downside.
We're using default rules and no modified scaling. A mage with Eloquence Talent is way more effective than the occasional +10 a fighter gets. Like bunny mentions heroes don't collect only experience points but magical items as well so they get boosted by such things like PP adders, items that grant bonus to skills, reduce penalties, etc. jasonbrisbane is right: the mage doesn't have to cast the spell at the highest possible effect but the RR to be made are so high that it's no fun for a GM to create immunities or special characters/environments all the time.

As GM you can't use foes out of the box to get an entertaining session were combat is still thrilling for everyone because the fighters get outperformed by our mages so heavily. At least it's the combination of their specialized skills and teamplay. They really know how make a haul with most non magical encounters. So we end up mostly with encounters that are only beatable because of the mages although player character death is not uncommon it starts to be a stressful job for me as GM and I'm looking forward to end the campaign soon. It's not the spells I mentioned above. I saw other combinations working effectively as well. When the GM ends up creating foes for the mages only there is something wrong.

I got the impression if you use the additional books and don't add restrictions HARP can be unbalanced in mid to high lever character setting. I mean what will they do if they reach level 18+ ?

Offline ob1knorrb

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Re: High-level HARP anyone?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 05:58:57 PM »
My current group of six characters is 14+ level (Thaumaturge, Warrior Mage, Monk/Warrior Mage, Ranger/Shadowblade, Harper/Mystic and a Vivamancer). We've actually been having more fun really. I recently spent several sessions running the Selkie's Secret from Guild Adventurer #2. I was able to keep the basic plot outline and role playing bits completely intact - I just increased the levels/power/numbers of all the bad guys to make the combat portions sufficiently challenging. There was plenty of difficult fighting for the fighters, scouting, spellcasting, etc. And tons of great role playing.



I missed this when it was first posted, but I'd love to hear what you and your players thought of the Selkie's Secret adventure.
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