Author Topic: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?  (Read 4449 times)

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Offline Deeman

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Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« on: September 12, 2007, 04:29:23 PM »
I was creating some characters for a HARP game and I came upon this issue while outfitting a cleric.  The composite bow takes less time to load, with the same ranges, weighs less, and most importantly does a medium puncture instead of the light crossbow's small.  The composite cost 6 more sp and fumbles 1% more of the time, but that's paltry considering the advantages.  Longbow looks pretty good compared to the light crossbow too. 

I know these arguements shouldn't affect a players choice if he wants to use a light crossbow for character flavor, but I think the light crossbow would be left on the shop shelf a lot.


Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 04:54:16 PM »
Ahhh...but did you take into account the Point Blank ranges and bonuses?
Or their sizes? A light x-bow is probably not as large as a composite bow.
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Offline Deeman

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 04:56:31 PM »
Yes.  Composite is identical to a light crossbow, while a long bow has a greater range increment with less point blank range and bonus.

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 05:02:25 PM »
In that case, I would say you have made an excellent observation that needs an excellent explanation ;D
A military solution isn't the only answer, just one of the better ones.
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Offline Crypt

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 02:17:45 AM »
maybe HARP lakes some factors to differentiate those weapons, the first one being the strength needed to keep the string tended while targetting with a bow.
If you're not strong enough the bow begins to shake and you quickly lose precision and power.

A crossbow keeps it tended by itself.

IRL, this is a very important factor.



Quote
I know these arguements shouldn't affect a players choice if he wants to use a light crossbow for character flavor, but I think the light crossbow would be left on the shop shelf a lot.

I don't let my players know the weapons stats. (exception: fumble range)
I think that's more fun for everyone because HARP doesn't simulate melee weapons range and handness * (making small weapons like daggers less interesting.)



* In the other hand i have some house rules to simulate that.
French version:
http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HARP/VAL_TAC/Val_Tac_HARP.pdf

English version, not fully translated.
Docx format, sorry. I'm at work, i cannot convert it now:
http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HARP/VAL_TAC/Val_Tac_HARP_eng.docx

« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 05:11:40 AM by Crypt »


Dr_Sage

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 01:37:25 PM »
In that case, I would say you have made an excellent observation that needs an excellent explanation ;D

Agreed with this one. Just considering game balance, this is an issue that could use some stat ajustment. In HARP the weapons are not the main deal, skill +luck are. There is no diference between an axe and a sword, so maybe we should think the same for x-bows and bows.

Again strictly speaking of game balance.


I don't let my players know the weapons stats. (exception: fumble range)
I think that's more fun for everyone because HARP doesn't simulate melee weapons range and handness * (making small weapons like daggers less interesting.)

Sorry, but this not solve the problem. And IMHO trained warriors should know roughly the diference in damage done by the weapons of diferent critical categories (say a dagger and a long sword). What I do not yet allow is that players sniff into my critical tables.

Again just my 2 cents.

Offline kasalin

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 02:16:36 PM »
The differences in attack size probably have to do with the amount of force that is generated by the different bows. The composite bow and short bow weigh the same but the short bow offers lesser range and damage, mostly due to it having a shorter pull and less length in the bow.  The same is probably true for the the composite bow v. light crossbow discussion.  The light crossbow probably has a shorter bow length than does the composite, so it does less damage. 

Same with the Longbow v. composite bow.  The longer length of the longbow allows for more force to be applied to the arrow which gives greater range and damage.
* No good deed goes unpunished

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 03:27:57 PM »
Good enough answer for me! ;D
A military solution isn't the only answer, just one of the better ones.
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Offline jurasketu

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 03:32:18 PM »
FRPG have always had issues when it comes to these things. Historically, crossbows were inferior weapons to the long bow and asian reflex bow (composite bow) because of the slow loading times and lack of reliability. BUT its EASIER to learn how to load and fire a crossbow accurately.

The same thing happened with muskets. The original muskets had a slow rate of fire (2/minute) compared to 10-12/minute for a bow and far inferior effective range and no better penetration or killing power. But any fool can learn to fire a musket to military effectiveness in a week. Skill with a bow takes significantly more time to learn and requires more practice to maintain the skill. Additionally, ammunition was cheap and could be supplied in large quantities. This meant musketeers could eventually (over the course of a day) out shoot equivalent archers - especially since the cost of training was nothing - peasant levies and militia were suddenly effective troops - and could be replaced ad nauseum.

In game terms, the difficulty of learning any particular weapon is not often reflected - certainly not in HARP. Sure, you can impose limitations of availability and cost of training, etc - but that's a pain and not particularly fun for players or gamemaster. You could give bonus ranks to "easy to learn" weapons if you like. So, say the first rank actually gives you three ranks instead because its so easy to learn.

And Dr_Sage is right - its skill+luck.

Minamoto Musashi (The Book of Five Rings) won 40 Samurai duels (never lost). The LAST 30, while he had his swords, he would instead fight with a training stick or a handy sapling - and he would KILL his opponent with the stick against a sword. Skill. Its the skill.

It is better to be lucky than good, but it is *best* to be both.

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Dr_Sage

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2007, 01:35:59 AM »
FRPG have always had issues when it comes to these things. Historically, crossbows were inferior weapons to the long bow and asian reflex bow (composite bow) because of the slow loading times and lack of reliability. BUT its EASIER to learn how to load and fire a crossbow accurately.

The same thing happened with muskets. The original muskets had a slow rate of fire (2/minute) compared to 10-12/minute for a bow and far inferior effective range and no better penetration or killing power. But any fool can learn to fire a musket to military effectiveness in a week. Skill with a bow takes significantly more time to learn and requires more practice to maintain the skill. Additionally, ammunition was cheap and could be supplied in large quantities. This meant musketeers could eventually (over the course of a day) out shoot equivalent archers - especially since the cost of training was nothing - peasant levies and militia were suddenly effective troops - and could be replaced ad nauseum.

In game terms, the difficulty of learning any particular weapon is not often reflected - certainly not in HARP. Sure, you can impose limitations of availability and cost of training, etc - but that's a pain and not particularly fun for players or gamemaster. You could give bonus ranks to "easy to learn" weapons if you like. So, say the first rank actually gives you three ranks instead because its so easy to learn.

And Dr_Sage is right - its skill+luck.

Minamoto Musashi (The Book of Five Rings) won 40 Samurai duels (never lost). The LAST 30, while he had his swords, he would instead fight with a training stick or a handy sapling - and he would KILL his opponent with the stick against a sword. Skill. Its the skill.

Fully agree.

If we try to be too much accurrate introducing sciences and history to our FRPGs we will uttely fail.

Funny you remark about time to learn new weapons. In ADnD 2nd edition the characters had a certain ammount of "weapon slots" that they used to learn weapon skills (1 slot = 1 weapon). I remmember trying to mess up with the system trying to make it more realistic by increasing the slots needed to learn certain weapons and increasing their effectiveness.

Lets face it: A shuriken is crap in my hands, but should be deadly the Master Ninja hands. In ADnD terms it would make aproxmately 1/5 of a sword?s damage. But in the hands of a specialist? We all want our deadly ninjas to use shurikens to "one-shot-one-kill effects". But the Master Ninja would have to train that skill for like 20 years to perfect the art when any idiot can hit a target with a firearm.

The same aply to all exotic weapons, like nunchaku, boomerangs, tetsubishis, zaranbatanas etc.

I think HARP is great in that particular acpect precisely becuse the weapons are equivalent. In our last gaming session the party?s thief disabled and killed a full armored mounted cavalier in 2 rounds using a dagger. Not many systens allow that.

In my opinion there is a clear distinction between weapon size and critical size. To be completely honest I would prefer the criticals to have diferent names reflecting severity like: "light", "moderate" etc. Instead of the "size names" that can be misleading.

So in my opinion the x-bow, bow, or any medieval fantasy ranged weapon must observe game balance first, then we can consider the rest. As I prefer the weapon choice to be part of the character concept, not the other way around (to choose the weapon for its advantages, and then try to justify it).

Sorry for the long text.

Regards,

Andre

Offline Deeman

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Re: Should a light crossbow do a medium puncture?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2007, 01:00:49 PM »
Some interesting arguements.  I suppose it was difficult to try to accurately reflect the real life aspects of a weapon while placing it in a game environment.  Unfortunately the light crossbow is so inferior to similar ranged weapons that I don't see a reason to spend the same skill points on it that could be spent on a composite or to a lesser degree a long bow.  Character concepts that wish to use a crossbow will undoubtedly take the extra time to reload, weight, and cost of the large crossbow.  Although, there are those who believe taking on harsh handicaps is the core of roleplaying. I say to each his own, but my light crossbows will do medium punctures to put it in line with similar weapons. :D