Topic: Runes skill - I need confirmation!

[Duskwalker]

Hey folks

After my Harper met his inevitable doom last session and is now pushing up the proverbial daisies I started to design a new character for a Cyradon campaign and went for a Drei (essentially a mage, for those not familiar with Cyradon).

Having access to the Rune Mastery spell, being from a viking like culture and having the chance of buying a starting item which gives me +5 to inscribing runes (with some other nice bonusses) I decided to make him an expert in runes, so I read up with the appropriate skills in the core rules, CoM and Loot.

The issue of how many runes one knows has already been discussed in depth, so I don't need information on that. We rule that a spell caster can inscribe any spell he knows, while a non spell caster may learn one rune for an universal spell for every five full ranks he has in the runes skill.
Battle runes are a totally different topic and need not to be considered. The topic of circles seems clear to me, too, so no questions there (1 circle/5 ranks ratio).

So, having set the scene I have a couple of questions I need answers to.

> How much does a sheet of rune parchment/vellum/paper actually cost?

The core rules have no answer to that, CoM says that the production cost for 10 sheets is 5, 8 and 3 gp respectively, while the preparation of any paper like material should cost one gp per sheet. What do you think is a fair price? Imo, a one gp basis per sheet of rune parchment/... should be the absolute maximum. Would you add up the costs or neglect the preparation cost for specially crafted media only applying it to unsuited materials?

> What is the maximum rank a caster can inscribe?

The absolute limit is 30 PP as defined by the Rune Mastery spell. However, does a character need to have as many ranks in the runes skill as he wants the spell to have PPs? Does he just need to know the spell (rank 1) or does he actually have to be able to cast it up to the PPs he wants it to be inscript with? I found no definite answers to these questions in the rules. (Do you actually "know" a spell when you only have one rank in it?)
Imo, he has to fullfill all the requirements I just posted. Any other option is just too unbalancing. What are your opinions?

> How long does it take to cast a rune?

According to the core rules, once a rune is deciphered, a spell casting character can activate it "at will". Is that an action where he has to look at the rune or can he just stash scroll upon scroll pending activation in his backpack? Does he even have to have them with him? Does it require an "action" or is it instantaneous like battle runes? Obviously a non-spell-caster has to read it out, requiring a skill roll and taking out the sheet.
Imo, the caster has to at least look at the rune which shoud take at least a round, depending on whether he's got it at hand or stored it away. What is your interpretation?

> Is a rune too weak?

According to Loot, the bonus of a rune is equal to the rank bonus (number of PPs of the rune), giving a 3 PP Jolts rune a meek +15. That's hardly worth a try and it gets even worse with elemental attack spells. A 2 PP Arcane Bolt has a ridiculous bonus of +10 a 4 PP Elemental Bolt just +20 and even a Elemental Ball offers +30. It works well with non offensive spells though as only their spell attributes are determined by the ranks (PPs) of the rune. But please wait with your answer until you read the next.

> Is a rune too powerfull?

Same story, but now with an experienced character. Let's say he knows Elemental Bolt with 12 ranks for a total bonus of +79 (+54 skill ranks, +20 attributes, + 5 magic item), wanting to cast it doing a huge critical (+8 PPs = 12 PP total = -40) in only one round (- 2 rounds = -20) due to an emergency. This leaves him with just +19 OB for attack and 12 PP less. The same spell as a rune would have an OB of +54 (12 ranks) and wouldn't even require an activation roll (much less a roll to decipher it, since he wrote it himself), although he'd have to inscribe it via the Rune Mastery spell. Thats a difference of 35 points and 12 PPs. Even if he took the time of three rounds his OB is less (+39 compared to +54). It actually gets worse/ better the higher you scale.
Why should I even bother to cast the spell myself if I can do it from parchment at a higher bonus with no ad hoc cost? Of course I'd have to spend the PPs when inscribing it, but I could do it in a safe haven. Any objections to the above? (I actually like this, since it adds a lot of tactical possibilities to the game)

Waiting for your highly valued opinions and maybe even some clarifications.

[Dr_Sage]

The runes skill is kinda confusing to me in terms of the real benefits of rune craft.

The issue of how many runes one knows has already been discussed in depth, so I don't need information on that. We rule that a spell caster can inscribe any spell he knows,

But About your house rule I would not go that way since if rune casting is indeed good as it seems to people then this can be a bit unbalancing, compared to the other options avaible to casters.

As a golden rule I?ve stoped allowing my gaming group to mess up with the rules if something is not at least tested yet, or discussed here. 

[Duskwalker]

As I said, the learning topic has been discussed in depth. Thanks for the contribution, but no more ideas to that, please. 
The rule is not an house rule anyway, but highly official (cf. HARP p. 43, subskill Inscribe runes) so no messing up there.

[Dr_Sage]

My bad. I assumed you were house ruling. 

[munchy]

> How much does a sheet of rune parchment/vellum/paper actually cost?

Are we talking about production cost or selling cost here? Did not quite understand that properly. I would go with the production cost from the CoM because I think they are pretty fair.
And then a price if you bought it in a magick shoppe for a gold piece PER sheet seems fine - the seller wants to get something out of it.


> What is the maximum rank a caster can inscribe?

I don't have the link right now but I asked something about the scaling options of Potion Mastery and Rune Mastery in the forums somewhere and Nicholas answered that the scaling option of Potion Mastery would also apply to Rune Mastery, thus there would be no maximum on inscribable PPs. It is +1 or +2 PP per extra PP inscribed or so. (Don't have the books here at the moment.)

> How long does it take to cast a rune?

We require the rune user to take and roll out the rune paper, read the rune in order to cast it. And it takes a full round to do so ... we even thought about having it requiring two rounds as I think I've read somewhere (still don't have my books with me) that drinking a potion takes two rounds (I guess 1) taking it out, 2) drinking it)).

> Is a rune too weak?

Encountered this problem too (the last problem not yet as no one is able to use a Rune Mastery spell of that level yet). And found no solution as of yet.

> Is a rune too powerful?

see above (sorry)

[Duskwalker]

Hey again

Concerning costs:
Thanks for the confirmation about the price, seems to pretty much mirror my own opinion.

Concerning maximum ranks:
The absolute maximum number of in PPs a rune can be inscribed with is 30 as stated in the core rules (p. 130 under the Rune Mastery spell, scaling option # 3). What I look for is how many ranks in the Runes skill and the respective spells he wants to inscribe a character needs to have in order to be able to do so.

Concerning the time requirement:
I'm stupid.
I skipped the line in the skill description. It states that it takes one full round to activate a rune. But as munchy says, this might also be a two round action if you need to grab and/or unroll the sheet first. (Or maybe get a leather quiver specially made for sheets of rune paper, similar to a herb bandoleer... )

Concerning power:
thx...looking forward for more information!

[Ecthelion]

Hi,

I hope it is OK to revive this old thread. It just seems to fit as I also have some questions concerning runes, where I did not find answers yet:

a) Say I have a character that wants to use a rune paper. Am I right to assume that the character's armor does not in any way hinder when activating the rune as it is "activated" and not "cast" by the character?

b) Let's say a magic user knows the Blur spell to 3rd level i.e. he can cast the basic form. I would assume that, even should he have access to the Rune Mastery spell, which allows him to put scaled up versions of spells into rune papers, that he is still limited to 3rd level Blur runes as he is not able to cast a 5th level Blur. Is that right? Or is he possible to put a 9PP version of the Blur spell into a Rune paper by use of the Rune Mastery spell and his Runes skill?

c) Is it correct that for creating a Rune a spell casting roll is not necessary? Instead a Runes skill roll is made, right?

d) If using the spell Rune Mastery, is a separate Runes skill check still required or is casting the Rune Mastery spell alone sufficient to create the rune?

Thanks

[Ecthelion]

No one who can answer my questions?  :'(

[WoeRie]

Ok, I will try my best. What I write below is how I interpret (and use) the rules.

a) Say I have a character that wants to use a rune paper. Am I right to assume that the character's armor does not in any way hinder when activating the rune as it is "activated" and not "cast" by the character?

The armor does not count for using a rune. It is not spellcasting. I think the main magical process was done during creating the rune rather than activating it.

b) Let's say a magic user knows the Blur spell to 3rd level i.e. he can cast the basic form. I would assume that, even should he have access to the Rune Mastery spell, which allows him to put scaled up versions of spells into rune papers, that he is still limited to 3rd level Blur runes as he is not able to cast a 5th level Blur. Is that right? Or is he possible to put a 9PP version of the Blur spell into a Rune paper by use of the Rune Mastery spell and his Runes skill?

You need to have knowledge of the spell and you have to be able to cast it to create the rune. So, I wouldn't allow to cast spells you don't have the Ranks to cast for.
There are further spells (unknown spells) you can use for every 5 ranks in Runes skill. I allow these only for the base form .

c) Is it correct that for creating a Rune a spell casting roll is not necessary? Instead a Runes skill roll is made, right?

Yes.

d) If using the spell Rune Mastery, is a separate Runes skill check still required or is casting the Rune Mastery spell alone sufficient to create the rune?

I think both are needed, the Rune Mastery spell only allows you to engrave a rune for a scaled spell, but it is not replacing the rune skill.

Hope this helps.

[Ecthelion]

Thanks, it looks like you interpret the rule just like I did - and if two are of the same opinion it increases the chance that it is the correct interpretation  .

[Right Wing Wacko]

And isn't a Rune skill roll made to successfully use the rune (ie. cast the spell)?

[Ecthelion]

If a character has spell casting capabilities is can be used at will, otherwise indeed another Runes skill roll is needed.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

No one who can answer my questions?  :'(

Sorry was busy with other things the past few days. Things seem to be lightening up though...

a) Say I have a character that wants to use a rune paper. Am I right to assume that the character's armor does not in any way hinder when activating the rune as it is "activated" and not "cast" by the character?

Correct. The spell has already been and bound into the rune. Activation of the rune is nothing more than releasing the already-cast spell.

b) Let's say a magic user knows the Blur spell to 3rd level i.e. he can cast the basic form. I would assume that, even should he have access to the Rune Mastery spell, which allows him to put scaled up versions of spells into rune papers, that he is still limited to 3rd level Blur runes as he is not able to cast a 5th level Blur. Is that right? Or is he possible to put a 9PP version of the Blur spell into a Rune paper by use of the Rune Mastery spell and his Runes skill?

Correct, you can only enrune what you know. If you don't know 5 ranks in the Blur spell, you cannot scale it up to be a 5 PP Blur even if your Rune Mastery spell capabilities were up to the task.

c) Is it correct that for creating a Rune a spell casting roll is not necessary? Instead a Runes skill roll is made, right?

Correct, no casting roll required when incribing a spell, just the Rune skill roll, with the -30 modifier.

d) If using the spell Rune Mastery, is a separate Runes skill check still required or is casting the Rune Mastery spell alone sufficient to create the rune?

When using the Rune Mastery spell, no Rune skill roll is required (the spell specifically states "no maneuver roll required"), just the successful casting of the spell.

And isn't a Rune skill roll made to successfully use the rune (ie. cast the spell)?

If a character has spell casting capabilities is can be used at will, otherwise indeed another Runes skill roll is needed.

If you are not a spell caster, using a Rune requires 2 rolls -- one to decipher, one to use.

If you are a spell caster, using a Rune requires 1 roll to decipher the rune. Once deciphered, it may be used at will.

If you are the creator of the rune, you KNOW what it is and have no need to decipher it or use it, so no rolls are required.

(Note: spells that require RRs or do attacks, still need rolls, but unless the character knows the spell himself, there are no bonuses to such rolls)

[Ecthelion]

Thanks for the clarification

[munchy]

Nice extensive answer. Same, I guess goes for Alchemy and the other thingy-creation methods, right?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Nice extensive answer. Same, I guess goes for Alchemy and the other thingy-creation methods, right?

Pretty much..

[munchy]

Thanks. Will probably have one of the players have her character do a big run on Potion during or in between the next session(s) - usually prefer that stuff between sessions as it holds up the game otherwise.

[Adunakhor]

> Is a rune too powerfull?

Same story, but now with an experienced character. Let's say he knows Elemental Bolt with 12 ranks for a total bonus of +79 (+54 skill ranks, +20 attributes, + 5 magic item), wanting to cast it doing a huge critical (+8 PPs = 12 PP total = -40) in only one round (- 2 rounds = -20) due to an emergency. This leaves him with just +19 OB for attack and 12 PP less. The same spell as a rune would have an OB of +54 (12 ranks) and wouldn't even require an activation roll (much less a roll to decipher it, since he wrote it himself), although he'd have to inscribe it via the Rune Mastery spell. Thats a difference of 35 points and 12 PPs. Even if he took the time of three rounds his OB is less (+39 compared to +54). It actually gets worse/ better the higher you scale.
Why should I even bother to cast the spell myself if I can do it from parchment at a higher bonus with no ad hoc cost? Of course I'd have to spend the PPs when inscribing it, but I could do it in a safe haven. Any objections to the above? (I actually like this, since it adds a lot of tactical possibilities to the game)

I would think, scaling penalties would apply, even if the spell is cast from a rune. So the OB for the 12PP Elemental Bolt should be 14. Isn't this correct?

Still the OB for attack runes is too low, as we noticed during our last session. Any solutions for that problem?

Andreas

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi,

No, the scaling penalties do not apply when you cast Battle runes (other others?) in a Safe Haven.
This means that in camp you can cast your spells without armour, with focus item, etc to get the biggest bonus on the spell and the biggest bonus (or OB for attack spells).

Of course the best way to get a bigger bonus is to get more ranks in the spell. More ranks = bigger bonus.
You can also take traits of course (Eloquence is a Great One!, and a Focus Item is a good cheap way to get a +5).

[Adunakhor]

Hi,

No, the scaling penalties do not apply when you cast Battle runes (other others?) in a Safe Haven.
This means that in camp you can cast your spells without armour, with focus item, etc to get the biggest bonus on the spell and the biggest bonus (or OB for attack spells).

Of course the best way to get a bigger bonus is to get more ranks in the spell. More ranks = bigger bonus.
You can also take traits of course (Eloquence is a Great One!, and a Focus Item is a good cheap way to get a +5).

Battle Runes are for the basic spell only (see ML p14), so you never have any scaling penalty. Sure, if you are at home or in any safe place, you could ignore casting penalties (from armor etc.) for inscribing any rune, but you need not cast the spell and it doesn't change the potency in terms of OB of the inscribed spell. An (Elemental?) attack spell, cast from a Battle Rune always attacks with a +40 to its OB, regardless of skill ranks and/or talents (also ML p14).

Which leads me some questions:
What OB do attack spells other than elemental attacks spells have, when cast from a Battle Rune (+40 )?
Battle runes are very specific. Are other runes handled in the same way? What about scaled spells? Other runes can hold scaled spells (using Rune Mastery), so what is the OB for these? Do scaling penalties (-5 per scaled pp) apply?

Thanks
Andreas