Topic: Questions about attack tables

[juza]

I have some problems with the attack tables.
In RMSS with a high OB every attack against any armor always delivers an E critic and there is also a little difference about the hit points you inflict.
I was thinking to start to use RMU attack tables in which there are more differences between critics and hit points you can inflict with different arms against different armors. But I still have some doubts about:
Am I crazy thinking that each armor should give different protection against different attack?
For example i think that  a chain armor should protect better against slash attack than impact ones, on the opposite a padded armor should give a better defence against crush than slash attach. Shouldn't be easier, for a sweeps attack to drop  someone in an heavy armor rather than someone in a light one?
Also spells attacks should be different in my opinion: electricity, heat and cold should inflict more damage against metal armor and less against leather ones, and I keep going with many other examples..
What do you think about?

[Peter R]

I believe all the attack tables have been changed since the beta release and what you describe is how they work now.

[Fingolfin80]

I have some problems with the attack tables.
In RMSS with a high OB every attack against any armor always delivers an E critic and there is also a little difference about the hit points you inflict.
I was thinking to start to use RMU attack tables in which there are more differences between critics and hit points you can inflict with different arms against different armors. But I still have some doubts about:
Am I crazy thinking that each armor should give different protection against different attack?
For example i think that  a chain armor should protect better against slash attack than impact ones, on the opposite a padded armor should give a better defence against crush than slash attach. Shouldn't be easier, for a sweeps attack to drop  someone in an heavy armor rather than someone in a light one?
Also spells attacks should be different in my opinion: electricity, heat and cold should inflict more damage against metal armor and less against leather ones, and I keep going with many other examples..
What do you think about?

Well, yes and no. I agree that electrical attacks should not be reduced by metal armor, but for the rest no, I don't think that's the right direction. I concede that a lether armor can protect better against slash than impact, but a metal one will be better than lether in both cases. In fact, the way armor was weared wasn't mutually exclusive as one might think: you had a padded vest, on top of that you could put a chainmail vest and on top of that you had a plate armor, if you had one. If you wore plate you had the protection of chain and padded, beacuse you were actually wearing them.
For the sweeps problem, it's not easier to sweep an heavy armored opponent than a light armored one, but if you are without weapons facing a man in full plate sweeps and joint leverage is your only option, beacuse fists will simply not work.

[Hurin]

I think there are three separate questions here:

--Should different armors protect better against different weapons? Yes, they already do, at least relative to one another: Armor Type 7 (scale) is only slightly better than AT 6 (heavy leather) against a Battle Axe, but AT 6 is much better than AT 5 (laminar) against the same weapon. So different armors do get a modifier against different weapons, even if some of us had hoped that these modifiers would be a wee bit larger, and even if these modifiers are not normally enough to make a heavier armor type worse than a lighter one.

--Should it be easier to sweep an armored opponent? It was in RM2, because the sweeps chart was a 'reverse' chart that more easily obtained more damaging results against higher armor types. As Fingolfin has noted though, that wasn't entirely realistic, and it also made armor type 1 too unrealistically good (which was a problem pretty much everyone recognizes in RM2). So the new Unarmed Sweeps charts try to find a balance, making sweeps relatively good against higher armor types, but not better than against lower armor types.

--RMU does the same for elemental attacks, and again Fingolfin's comments are spot on here I think. RMu specifies (Treasure Law, p. 52; I think in ArmsandCharacter Law too?) that underneath all the metal armor types, combatants are assumed to be wearing quilted padding (AT 2), which explains why you are better protected against a fireball in AT 7 than in AT 6.

The only remaining question I think is whether the modifier for Lightning Bolts against metal armors should be so strong that it breaks the general rule and makes Lightning Bolt truly stronger (in absolute terms) against metal armors than it is against the heavier leather ones. On that, I could go either way.

[jdale]

The reverse progression charts in previous editions assumed heavier armor meant you could dodge less. The RMU charts remove that assumption so there aren't reverse progressions, but there are charts where armor provides very little protection.

It's debatable how lightning should affect metal. Electricity hitting a sphere or a cage will generally move around the outside without passing into the center. And there is padding between the armor and the wearer. But lightning bolts are being shaped and directed by magic, not by physical forces. In the end we assume metal armor is less protective but not that it provides zero or negative protection.

[juza]

Thank you guys for yours great explanations. It was quite silly to me not thinking that under a metal armor you are suppose to wear a quilted padding.. I had this spasmodic desire that there was no perfect armor against any kind of attack that led me to be a bit superficial.
But I have still some doubts:
I don't think that an armor behave as a Faraday cage but I didn't study physics in depth, so I take jdale words for real.
About sweeps attacks maybe I didn't explain myself well. I don't think that sweeps attacks should bring more damages to an opponent in heavy armor, but simply that it should be easier to unbalancing him and making him fall.

[Merkir]

PhD in Elec Eng here. Lightning vs armour is an interesting topic and I have 20 mins spare...

TLDR; If it's "magic" lightning, the devs should just do as they please to maximise fun. Release the carnage!

Long version:
The physics behind it is quite straight forward. Lightning is electric current which will take the path of least resistance to ground, thereupon completing the electric circuit. If a person's body is completely enclosed (or encaged) by a strong conductive material (metal), including right down to the soles of their feet, they will probably not take much damage from a direct hit. In such a case, most of the current will pass through the metal to ground. That assumes there's a complete electric path for the current through the metal, and that the current doesn't heat the metal to destruction, or to a point were heat damage exceeds electrical damage leakage. The person may come through relatively unscathed. It's much the same reason you'd rather be in a car that's struck by lightning rather than just outside it.

Unfortunately, most metal armour doesn't provide a complete electrical circuit to ground. If a person is wearing a chain shirt only, or even worse, a chain shirt and metal boots, they'll have a big problem. The chain mail will act like a low resistance terminal on one end, and their boots/ground at the other end. Their legs will complete the circuit as the path of lowest resistance. The result won't be pretty. If there is a direct contact between the bottom of the chain shirt and their flesh, the results will be horrendous. I'd expect at that point the current would in effect fry the upper legs to a crisp, in effect funnelling the current through a very small surface area of the upper legs/groin. Padding will help, so if there's no direct contact with flesh, the padding will help distribute the current across a larger surface area through the chain to the (mostly lower) torso. There may be less burn damage if spread out, but since almost all the current must pass through the legs anyway, there's every likelihood the person may lose their legs. This is a situation where the chain armour can act to concentrate the effects of the lightning, saving some areas (upper torso perhaps) but making it much worse in other areas.

And then of course there's the issue of the electric shock stopping the heart. My feeling is that a chain shirt would help protect against that, but there would still be (lower) current passing through the upper torso as well.

[juza]

Apart my silly questions, I really think that attack tables and especially critic charts (especially the grappling and the Unbalance ones) in RMU are much better that those in RMSS. My players don't want to pass to RMU so I was thinking to adapt only the attack tables and critics to my game. Do you think that this is possible? I read the topic about RMU AT and how to convert to the old system, but maybe RMSS OB is too high for the attack tables studied for RMU, isn't it? Or maybe is better to keep using the RMSS attack tables and just use RMU critic charts?

[juza]

PhD in Elec Eng here. Lightning vs armour is an interesting topic and I have 20 mins spare...

TLDR; If it's "magic" lightning, the devs should just do as they please to maximise fun. Release the carnage!

Long version:
The physics behind it is quite straight forward. Lightning is electric current which will take the path of least resistance to ground, thereupon completing the electric circuit. If a person's body is completely enclosed (or encaged) by a strong conductive material (metal), including right down to the soles of their feet, they will probably not take much damage from a direct hit. In such a case, most of the current will pass through the metal to ground. That assumes there's a complete electric path for the current through the metal, and that the current doesn't heat the metal to destruction, or to a point were heat damage exceeds electrical damage leakage. The person may come through relatively unscathed. It's much the same reason you'd rather be in a car that's struck by lightning rather than just outside it.

Unfortunately, most metal armour doesn't provide a complete electrical circuit to ground. If a person is wearing a chain shirt only, or even worse, a chain shirt and metal boots, they'll have a big problem. The chain mail will act like a low resistance terminal on one end, and their boots/ground at the other end. Their legs will complete the circuit as the path of lowest resistance. The result won't be pretty. If there is a direct contact between the bottom of the chain shirt and their flesh, the results will be horrendous. I'd expect at that point the current would in effect sever the legs as it fries them to a crisp, in effect funnelling the current through a very small surface area of the upper legs/groin. Padding will help, so if there's no direct contact with flesh, the padding will help distribute the current across a larger surface area through the chain to the (mostly lower) torso. There may be less burn damage if spread out, but since almost all the current must pass through the legs anyway, there's every likelihood the person will lose their legs. This is a situation where the chain armour can act to concentrate the effects of the lightning, saving some areas (upper torso perhaps) but making it much worse in other areas.

And then of course there's the issue of the electric shock stopping the heart. My feeling is that a chain shirt would help protect against that, but there would still be (lower) current passing through the upper torso as well.

Great Merkir, thank you very much!

[Merkir]

And then there's the case where you're wielding a metal sword, perhaps holding the tip close to the ground when struck by lightning. The path of least resistance being...

Or standing next to a person wearing full metal armour.

The variations are endless.

[jdale]

Apart my silly questions, I really think that attack tables and especially critic charts (especially the grappling and the Unbalance ones) in RMU are much better that those in RMSS. My players don't want to pass to RMU so I was thinking to adapt only the attack tables and critics to my game. Do you think that this is possible? I read the topic about RMU AT and how to convert to the old system, but maybe RMSS OB is too high for the attack tables studied for RMU, isn't it? Or maybe is better to keep using the RMSS attack tables and just use RMU critic charts?

Damage on the RMU tables is actually a bit lower than RMSS. I don't think there will be any problem with using the RMU tables and critical charts in RMSS. The amount of injury penalties is a bit high on the critical tables in the beta though (it will be toned down in the final release).

There are a few spells that affect AT, you'll have to deal with those on a case by case basis. Also, you'll have to decide how to deal with the new Staggered critical result (probably it takes away 25% activity on your next round?).

[Hurin]

Thanks Merkir for that explanation of the physics; it was enlightening!

The reality is actually cooler than I thought. It raises the possibility that one really could tailor armor to provide defense against lightning -- especially in a world where fighters in full plate can reasonably expect to face a Battlemage shooting lightning bolts.

JessicaEwers has developed her own expanded piecemeal armor system for RMU that also includes modifications/add-ons to armor to protect against the various elemental attacks (insulation vs. fire, fur-lined vs cold). What you say above gives the impression that the mods to protect vs. lightning are not that far fetched! I guess you could have small chains or cords connecting all the pieces to the metal foot armor to complete the circuit to the ground?

[juza]

Damage on the RMU tables is actually a bit lower than RMSS. I don't think there will be any problem with using the RMU tables and critical charts in RMSS. The amount of injury penalties is a bit high on the critical tables in the beta though (it will be toned down in the final release).

There are a few spells that affect AT, you'll have to deal with those on a case by case basis. Also, you'll have to decide how to deal with the new Staggered critical result (probably it takes away 25% activity on your next round?).

Thank you jdale, your suggestions are always precious.

[rdanhenry]

There are plenty of cases where a target will be AT 10 (or AT 20 in the old reckoning), but not necessarily have any metal on them at all, these fall into four categories:

1) Protective spells

2) Natural armor

3) Protective magical items

4) Special materials (e.g., high tech polymer armor protecting as AT 10 with +20 DB)

This has always made the logic of the "reverse" tables problematic. It would be better to provide a separate rule if one wanted to make metal attractive to Lightning Bolts. Something like add the pounds of metal carried/worn to the OB (halve if a Shock Bolt) or something along those lines. Or just +10 for metal object held, +20 for metal armor (again, halve for Shock Bolt), maybe. Whatever it is, it should not be backed into the table.

[Cory Magel]

Although I was not planning to move to RMU I was hoping to get some use out of some of the materials, unfortunately (my opinion) they are different enough that combining things is likely to cause problems. I want attack tables like HARP for RMSS, just much more robust (one for every weapon!). I don't want less armor categories. When I win the lottery/retire I'll just have to make my own.

Two ideas of what to do about the attack tables, without trying to convert to RMU (if you want to give it a shot).
1. Loop the attack roll. When you roll 250 apply 100 to the table again. Resulting 2nd crits are of a different type that makes sense. if you want to make this slightly more deadly, always start the roll-over at the first line where there is damage.
2. Use secondary criticals only. Just add one degree per, we'll say 25 points.  So a 175 attack would be an E and A. 200 would be an E and B. etc.