Topic: Martial Arts in RMC

[WoeRie]

As I wrote elsewhere I went back to RM2/C after a long absence (~15 years), which was filled with RealLife and HARP

I decided to go for RMC, as I liked some of the enhacements.

After creating the characters for my new group we found that nearly all special rules for MA are missing in the new AL (like Weapon Kata, Multiple Attacks and other stuff), on the other hand I found that the Combat Companion is doing a totally different approach in adding these rules back to the game.
Though I didn't want to use Combat Styles (and the Combat Companion at all), I could pick some of the rules to allow weapon Katas. At the moment our Warrior Monk says he does not need anything special (as he is no Power Gamer), but I'm afraid that he would be quite weak compared to normal weapon combat (4 skills to improve, very bad parry, no magic weapons).

So, what are you doing/thinking? Are you using the old RM2 rules, using the Combat Styles or no special rules for MA at all?

[WoeRie]

As I can't edit the previous post, here a small note:

I found out that the complete Section 10.3. in the old RM2 AL was not for RM2 players. So, RM2 had NO rules for MA Weapon Katas at all for CL users, but very complex rules for those who converted from a different system. VERY, VERY STRANGE

[Marc R]

Those rules were often hand waved out of the "When using other systems" section. . .especially considering updated versions of them appeared in the later Rolemaster Companions for RM2.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

So, RM2 had NO rules for MA Weapon Katas at all for CL users, but very complex rules for those who converted from a different system. VERY, VERY STRANGE

Errrr, not at all. It's simply because these rules are in the Ch.&CL (section 13.3, p81). AL gives rules for "those who converted from a different system" and want to use AL because they wouldn't use the Ch.&CL (that gives rules for "pure" RM2 users).

[WoeRie]

Ah! Perfect! Got it! Thanks Olf.

But still, there are NO rules for Weapon Katas in RMC! Or am I wrong. So, the question would still be the same. Has anybody used the new rules or would you suggest to use the old RM2 rules?

[yammahoper]

Ah! Perfect! Got it! Thanks Olf.

But still, there are NO rules for Weapon Katas in RMC! Or am I wrong. So, the question would still be the same. Has anybody used the new rules or would you suggest to use the old RM2 rules?

A weapon Kata results in a -20 OB penalty when using the kata.

This rule was so commonly well known back in the day perhaps they failed to provide it?

[WoeRie]

Well, not mentioned in RMC. Not a single note, not even a hint. Maybe somebody of the RMC team can enlighten us why it was dropped.

[vroomfogle]

Basically the old rule was:

If you are a Martial Artist, you can attack multiple foes, get multiple attacks, as well as use weapons without trainig, all for some small penalties.

If you use weapons, you can't do any of these things.


That's why it was dropped.

[WoeRie]

Ok, that makes sense. But you must think that a MA:

1) Has to develop 4 skills instead of one to get the same results as a weapon. So, he as to expend 4x as many DP.
2) Will never get a weapon bonus.
3) Can never hit a creature, which can only be hit by magical weapons.
4) Can not properly parry weapon attacks (only 1/2 OB to DB).
5) Has always the shorter weapon (so -10 initiative).

Do you really think this is balanced? Maybe the old rules were to imbalanced in favor of the MA, but now I think he is quite underpowered.

[vroomfogle]

Definitely Martial Arts has some issues, most notably is the 4x DP costs.   Combat Styles were created to fix those.   If you can get your hands on the Martial Arts Companion that would be worth a look.  You already have Combat Companion, so you could adapt the rules.

My main beef with the weapon kata is that the the drawback of Martial Arts should be that you are unarmed.   So when up against undead, supernatural, giant-sized creatures (that sweeps would be useless against), etc. you are at a big disadvantage because you aren't wielding a weapon or able to use magic weapons.

The weapon kata rule basically was a way to give the Martial Artist back all the drawbacks and gave him the ability to wield a weapon nearly as well as he was in martial arts.    Why not give fighters Unarmed Kata and let them use Martial Arts with their weapon OB -20 ?


So I agree it's not balanced, but it's not balanced with the old Kata rules either.    My personal fix would be to adopt Combat Styles of  some form that removed the need for the Martial Artist to take all 4 ranks of Unarmed, and also incorporate weapons in the same style.

[markc]

 And then there were magical bracer's that allowed the MA to affect creatures with specific (insert type) requirements.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

Ok, that makes sense. But you must think that a MA:

1) Has to develop 4 skills instead of one to get the same results as a weapon. So, he as to expend 4x as many DP.

Of course, a Fighter will want to learn multiple weapons. And probably buy a little martial arts striking in order to not be completely useless if he doesn't have a weapon. The martial artist cannot be disarmed; that in itself is a considerable advantage.

2) Will never get a weapon bonus.

No, but if it's a low-magic campaign, this is a minor drawback. In a high magic campaign, he can hope to find a magical item with a bonus to martial arts. And the martial artist can always train with a weapon if he wants to (a missile weapon wouldn't be a bad idea).

3) Can never hit a creature, which can only be hit by magical weapons.

There's your downside. There needs to be one.

4) Can not properly parry weapon attacks (only 1/2 OB to DB).

Gets Adrenal Defense, so he doesn't need to parry in the first place.

5) Has always the shorter weapon (so -10 initiative).

But probably makes up for it with Quickness. Especially against an armored fighter.

[WoeRie]

Ok, that makes sense. But you must think that a MA:

1) Has to develop 4 skills instead of one to get the same results as a weapon. So, he as to expend 4x as many DP.

Of course, a Fighter will want to learn multiple weapons. And probably buy a little martial arts striking in order to not be completely useless if he doesn't have a weapon. The martial artist cannot be disarmed; that in itself is a considerable advantage.

Hm, have you ever seen a fighter fully and even developing 4 melee weapons?
I doubt that. A fighter develops his main weapon, get a few ranks in MA, some in Dagger and maybe a few ones in Lance, but I never seen a fighter having 4 melee weapons at maximum!

2) Will never get a weapon bonus.

No, but if it's a low-magic campaign, this is a minor drawback. In a high magic campaign, he can hope to find a magical item with a bonus to martial arts. And the martial artist can always train with a weapon if he wants to (a missile weapon wouldn't be a bad idea).

Ok, true

3) Can never hit a creature, which can only be hit by magical weapons.

There's your downside. There needs to be one.

Ok, second one.

4) Can not properly parry weapon attacks (only 1/2 OB to DB).

Gets Adrenal Defense, so he doesn't need to parry in the first place.

5) Has always the shorter weapon (so -10 initiative).

But probably makes up for it with Quickness. Especially against an armored fighter.

Both true! I have not thought about AD and QU penaltiy of the armor. But on the other hand you have to think that he is not allowed to wear any armor. So, if he got hit he has AT 1, which won't protect him. I think AD is a very good substitute for armor. But that's it.

Anayway, I'm nearly convinced, but I still have the feeling that spending 4 times as many DP for an OB as most other chars need some benefits and not drawbacks.

Has anyone tried the Weapon Kata rules of the Combat Companion?

[rdanhenry]

AT-1 is one of the best ATs in the game, especially if you have any Quickness bonus. That's not a disadvantage. One the most common complaints about RM combat is that unarmored is too good.

A warrior monk's martial arts cost is also lower than a fighter's lowest weapon cost. And he has two attack tables to choose from (although the cost does make rapid development in both Sweeps and Strikes to the top of the chart prohibitively expensive -- or warrior monk's would completely dominate warfare), one of which excels against highly armored foes, which means that the martial artist can be good against nearly everyone. (AT-12 is hard to come by.)

[Setorn]

EA2 has usable rules for Weapon Katas, though I am not sure if they are still for-sale or available at the time.  Seems no one else mentions them ever any longer. 

My players who use martial arts do so to have a weapon that cannot be taken away, for some spell users the cost is cheaper than weapon cat 1, Katas EA2, and Maxing out all four tiers is not the goal.  Use tiers one and two to get a few crits in then switch to tiers three and four for the finish. When the foe is stunned or staggered. 

Training Packages:  I have created a Martial Arts TP for my setting that helps create a foundation to build from.  Training Packages are found in EA10.  Again I do not know who owns the rights to things but issues addressing MA have been attempted within RMC.

I agree with your disappointment with Combat Companion.  It makes combat too complicated.  It seems if RMC might be moving in that direction unfortunately.   

I am not a fan of combat in any system.  Combat interferes with story and character too much.     

[smug]

I am hoping they are going to re-release Express Additions. It'd be a terrible show if they don't, I reckon.

I am not all that keen on the Combat Companion, either, although maybe I just haven't read it enough. I'm cool with it being an option, though, that's the joy of RM2/C.

[WoeRie]

I have the EA's, but the Kata rules of EA2 are identical to the ones from CC. Though CC has some additional options, the basics are identical and can be used without using the Combat Styles.

At the moment I think I will go that way (which is more or less identical to EA2), but I still have the feeling I should convince our Warrior Monk to play a Fighter or a Rogue


EDIT: Oh... and I love combat The variation of criticals was the reason I converted back from HARP to RM2. In HARP combat gets quite boring after some time and in higher levels.

[markc]

WoeRie;
 Maybe you should convince them and switch or change a DP cost so they can develop 1 martial art or hand to hand style at near WM cost. Just and idea.
MDC

[Setorn]

I am hoping they are going to re-release Express Additions. It'd be a terrible show if they don't, I reckon.

I am not all that keen on the Combat Companion... I'm cool with it being an option, though, that's the joy of RM2/C.

Agreed

I must stress the usefulness of Training Packages.  In my East Asianesque setting, I have three Samurai TPs that must be purchased over time.  One must be purchased before the next higher.  While containing ranks in arms and armor it also includes Crafting: Poetry, and Meditation.  I did similar with a martial arts package.  I now have a group heading off to a monastery to find some one to teach them the martial arts package.  It really helps. 

To control TPs in my game, I limit them by availability, I agree when (usually 1 week for each DP with conditions) the TP is purchased, no TP may be taken twice (with a few exceptions) and each character is limited to 3-4 TP (based on the longevity of the race). 

Also the Background Option in Rolemaster Companion I (I think) Hammer Hands should be in some way available.     

As for magic items if the TPs are available or MA is the setting then magical gloves, bracers, belts of defense, magical peasant clothing would be as common as magical swords, daggers and flails.