Topic: Declaring OB/DB stance

[Marc R]

There are reasons why you declare before Initiative, and also why you can't change it (for instance, "I attack at full OB, then drop to full DB parry")

What if you don't have a weapon in hands, and draw one during the round. . .should you declare an OB/DB split the moment it's drawn?

What if, for instance, you enter the round declared full OB +80 with your dagger, make an attack, drop the dagger and draw your mace (with which you have a skill +60). . .would you still be at full OB (even though this weapon has a different skill applied to it), or when drawing could you then declare a different split?

[markc]

IMHO;
When you declare an OB/DB split it has some element of defense as well as offense in it no matter what actions you take. If you declare an action that negates either the offensive or defensive portion of the OB/DB split you forfeit that option.
  In your example IMHO the person who attacks, drops then draws has no DB. As IMHO the act of drawing is non-active  defense. The fact that he attacked, dropped the weapon he attacked with negated his DB.

MDC

[Marc R]

Using RMSS for an example, what if you start the round with no weapon, as a bunch of assassins pop out and attack you. . .no OB/DB split.

On snap, you draw your dagger. . . do you immediately declare OB/DB split now that it's out? You can attack with it in the following two phases.

[markc]

   IMHO once the dagger is drawn they get their DB split. If they declair an action after that that would negate thier DB for some reason I would tell them so and let them decide what they want to do.
  Also IMHO it would be the same no matter what version of RM you are playing.
 
MDC

[rdanhenry]

Yes, you would need to declare your OB/DB split when you declared your action to draw the dagger and engage one of the assassins (which could be "I fight the first assassin to come at me.") If you had declared some other action, then changed your action to confront an unexpected foe, you take the penalty for canceling actions. If you changed your action to attack a foe other than the one you initial declared (e.g., because you were going to attack Anonymous Guard #6, when your archenemy stepped into the room), I'd let you revise your OB/DB split when you changed action. The -40 for changing actions is enough penalty.

[Marc R]

(I am fully wearing the hat of devil's advocacy here)

But could you then technically attack full OB with a dagger, drop it, draw a mace and go full DB?

[providence13]

I may not understand the rules on this..
What full OB are you talking about?
You've already used some serious %Act on drawing, attacking and then drawing. Not much left. Should be some serious penalties.

Are you Hasted or Adr Spd?
Stating your intent shouldn't change just because you haven't draw yet. That shouldn't change, should it?

I kinda like the negate DB option, above.

[Old Man]

(I am fully wearing the hat of devil's advocacy here)

But could you then technically attack full OB with a dagger, drop it, draw a mace and go full DB?

Well, I'd see the OB/DB pot as empty after the attack. So if he has percent action left (what 30% to change weapons?) he could do such but there is no DB to add ...

[markc]

(I am fully wearing the hat of devil's advocacy here)

But could you then technically attack full OB with a dagger, drop it, draw a mace and go full DB?

IMHO, No. I can see what you are trying to do or say someone wants to do.
IE; I have a dagger of slaying and and mace of defense. I want to attack with my dagger and then draw my mace and use its defense to defend against everyone.
 Is that the idea?
MDC

[Marc R]

I'm merely trying to poke a hole in the rules and see if it's legal. . .full out advocate of deviltry style.

Since Providence has provided another ingredient of evil, we will use it.

If a person drawing a weapon mid round can declare an OB/DB split late, post initiative, can:

1) A person have no weapon out, and no declaration, and after initiative, draw and only then declare?

2) A person who is hasted, make an "attack" at full DB, drop weapon, draw another, and declare a full OB attack? (or vice versa)

[rdanhenry]

1) A person with no declaration is declaring no action, so suffers the penalty for changing action - attack must be done in deliberate and suffers a -40 penalty.
2) That depends. There are still only three phases in a Hasted person's round. If you consider dropping a weapon an action, then this is four actions and takes more than one round. If dropping the weapon is not counted as a action, however, this can be done. Note, however, that there is no parry during the normal phase (the weapon is dropped, so not used for defense, and the mace is in the process of being "drawn" and so not yet ready even if it was to be used to parry), so the parry only applies to attacks in snap. And at least one of those attacks has to be at less than truly full OB, since drawing a weapon will eat up some activity.
This is to be consistent with rulings that allowed Hasted individuals to change OB/DB split on attacks with the same weapon, where DB from parry applied only until a new attack with a different parry allocation was made.

[Marc R]

If the round starts with you with no weapon in hands, and you draw it on snap. . .you had no weapon in hand before init when ob/db splits are generally declared.

I consider drawing or putting away a weapon to be an action, and take activity, but I consider a drop to be a free action taking 0%. I think that's actually in the rules, but it's possible it's just a long standing house rule.

OK, so in RMSS that would work, just no parry during normal phase while the swap is occurring. . .you could pull it off in RMC with Haste, I guess the GM would need to hand figure how long the window of "no defense" is open.

[Ecthelion]

What if you don't have a weapon in hands, and draw one during the round. . .should you declare an OB/DB split the moment it's drawn?

The OB/DB split does not depend on a weapon in hands, it's kind of how aggressively you plan to go into combat. So it gets declared at the beginning of the round, at the same time when drawing the weapon gets declared.

What if, for instance, you enter the round declared full OB +80 with your dagger, make an attack, drop the dagger and draw your mace (with which you have a skill +60). . .would you still be at full OB (even though this weapon has a different skill applied to it), or when drawing could you then declare a different split?

I must admit that I don't fully understand the example since it looks like more than the three allowed actions that RMSS allows and also more than the one melee attack per round that either RM version allows (unless hasted or so). But in any case I would say that also in this example the OB/DB split gets declared at the beginning of the round, for all planned attacks.

Using RMSS for an example, what if you start the round with no weapon, as a bunch of assassins pop out and attack you. . .no OB/DB split.

On snap, you draw your dagger. . . do you immediately declare OB/DB split now that it's out? You can attack with it in the following two phases.

It depends on whether a new rounds starts after the assassins appear. If this is the case then the PC simply declares drawing the dagger as first action and an attack, with some kind of OB/DB split, as another action. If the assassins may act in the round that the PC perceives them, then we allow a combat perception maneuver. If that does succeed, then the PC may declare actions and act normally. If it fails he may usually not act at all.

[Ecthelion]

But could you then technically attack full OB with a dagger, drop it, draw a mace and go full DB?

In RMSS this would work if the character gets hasted. Then he could attack with his weapon in one phase with full OB and in another phase could do another attack (with the same or another weapon), this time with full parry, in a later phase. All this would be declared at the beginning of the round. Please note though, that, if the opponent would attack during or before the phase that the character does his full OB attack, the PC would not get any OB from his parry. IMO this is documented somewhere in the RM rulings.

[Ecthelion]

If a person drawing a weapon mid round can declare an OB/DB split late, post initiative, can:

If drawing a weapon would allow changing the OB/DB split, then you would indeed have found a flaw in the rules that could be exploited. Fortunately the rules never say that this can be done and instead require all actions to be declared (including OB/DB split for attacks) prior to rolling initiative.

[Ecthelion]

If the round starts with you with no weapon in hands, and you draw it on snap. . .you had no weapon in hand before init when ob/db splits are generally declared.

Yes, but this does not matter. If the character plans to draw a weapon and do an attack, then he has to declare an OB/DB split for that attack.

[Marc R]

OK, so the thing that prevents this exploit is the fact that no matter how much activity you have, you need to declare the OB/DB of any weapons you intend to use in declarations, before initiative is rolled, even if you don't have a weapon out at the start of combat.

What if you abort a declared action to do something different, like draw a weapon you had not mentioned in your declaration?

[Ecthelion]

What if you abort a declared action to do something different, like draw a weapon you had not mentioned in your declaration?

Well, then the Canceling Actions rules apply. These rules would allow an attack with -40 to OB with a weapon ready in hand. But they don't allow drawing a weapon and attacking. So all that is left in such a case would be to cancel and draw the weapon. The attack with that weapon would need to be postponed to the next round.

[Marc R]

The question is more in terms of drop and swap to full DB. . .so would you gain DB with the abort-to-draw weapon?

[Ecthelion]

The question is more in terms of drop and swap to full DB. . .so would you gain DB with the abort-to-draw weapon?

I'm not sure I understand what are aiming at, so can you give an example? Until now I think my last posting does explain it all. If a character wants to change his actions in the middle of the round, then he needs to cancel his actions. Of course, if he has a weapon in hands, he could even switch from attacking with full OB to parrying with full DB (modified by -40 for canceling). Changing weapons has nothing to do with this, except that when canceling you can either draw a new weapon or attack with the old one, but not draw a new one and attack.