Topic: Criticals with dead in X rounds

[Hubbaman]

Hello! I wondered if there is a chance to save a person that get this predicament. Say you get hit by a 96 - 99 B heat critical. It says "Flames burns into foe's throat. The damage is frightening. Foe's neck collapses in the flames. He drops and dies in 9 inactive rnds. He smells bad." Could you save this person?
Would it work to just throw a Preservation and a Lifekeeping spell on him? (If you manage to heal the actual damage before the spell duration runs out)

[thirqual]

It will depend strongly on the description. I have allowed chances to save someone whose arm had been cut at the shoulder through extensive compressions (first aid extremely hard rolls), several clotting spells and general help of 2 other characters from the following round.

For something like  C 91-95 C cold, I would not speak about the frozen clots which will stop his heart in 9 rounds, but a character attempting a diagnostic (with the diagnostics skill) before the end of this period would be able to notice this issue and to try to solve it (good luck with that).

[Hubbaman]

I was mostly thinking about delaying the actual death with magic and getting the character to a place where a healer could save him.
Preservation stats that it preserve the the "dead" body and prevent further deterioration or damage from already existing wounds. It also puts the person into a coma.
Lifekeeping prevents the soul form leaving the body and thus preventing actual death until the body is restored.

I need to know if this would apply to this situation.

[Marc R]

Lifekeeping works whenever someone is "dying" before they are permanently dead from soul departure. . .if you can heal the damage, they get back up.

Miracle Max "This man is only MOSTLY dead".

I always thought of lifekeeping as a rather torturous spell to use on someone you care about, but I guess pain is worth it to survive.

Preservation keeps the body from rotting, but doesn't stop soul departure, so healing will just give you a seemingly dead body in a coma with no soul, requiring a lifegiving spell to restore the soul.

In my games, keeping a soul-less body around begs trouble, as there are spirits around who's love to move in.

[Hubbaman]

So if I read your post correct, I should be able to save someone who dies in X rounds if I cast Preservation and Lifekeeping on them? If I manage to get them somewhere to heal them of course.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Actually, I would say that simply using Lifekeeping would be enough to preserve a character until you can get him to a healer.

If cast on a character after he has received a death wound, but before his soul leaves the body (Soul Departure countdown starts once the character is officially "dead"), then he is essentially treated the same as is he is in a Self-Keeping spell (i.e. in a coma for the duration).

Once the damage that would have "caused the death" is healed, he will wake back up.

Preservation would be another story - and I would have to look at it more closely before talking more about it. But you only need Lifekeeping for what you want.

[Hubbaman]

Thanks Rasyr! It was the answer I hoped for. I guess I would use Preservation as well to prevent the stat deterioration.

[Marc R]

I tend to house rule that lifekeeping also preserves, but a literal reading the book might say that lifekeeping only keeps the soul from departing, and preservation only keeps the body from rotting.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Thanks Rasyr! It was the answer I hoped for. I guess I would use Preservation as well to prevent the stat deterioration.

If a character is under the effects of a Lifekeeping spell, there is no stat deterioration because the character isn't actually dead.

[DangerMan]

..so when will you need a Preservation spell?

[Marc R]

You could look at it like preservation is the weaker version of lifekeeping, only keeping the Corpus from rotting, but still requiring a lifegiving to bring the Anima back, while lifekeeping is the better version that you only need to fix the body to bring the target back to life. . .if you look at the list, the preservations come at lower levels with longer durations. . .if you need to drag dead guy a week back to civilization to be healed, you might need to keep casting lifekeeping over and over and over many more times than the longer lasting preservation spell of the same or lower level.

That's generally been how I play it myself, though I have had GMs who felt the "Preservation" affected the Corpus, while the "Lifekeeping" affected the Anima, and neither "crossed over". In that case you'd need one to keep the soul present, and the other to keep the body from rotting.

I personally would not go that route, unless I was specifically trying to make life restoring magic even more difficult in an effort to reduce it's use in play. (Some game worlds benefit from lifegiving magic being either extraordinarily difficult / rare, or from not allowing the list for PCs at all).

[Hubbaman]

If a character is under the effects of a Lifekeeping spell, there is no stat deterioration because the character isn't actually dead.

Ok. How would you solve the situation I stated in my original post? The character there will bleed 12 hits per round and will quite quickly end up under the limit of his max hit and Co stat. Does this not matter at all when under the Lifekeeping spell? I always read the Lifekeeping spell as keeping the soul in the body, but it still deteriorated from the damages it had received.
But hey, easier for me to cast one spell instead of two 

[Marc R]

My read of those spells is that Preservation can be cast on any "dead" body, while lifekeeping can only be cast on a "dead" body before soul departure.

So, you'd have to wait for the guy to die before casting either on them would be my view. . .

Another use for preservation, if you find the king's body, and he's been dead 20 min so soul departure has already occurred, and you're not high enough level to cast lifegiving and/or fix the wounds, you cannot cast lifekeeping as soul departure has already happened, so you'd have to use preservation.

[Hubbaman]

So, you'd have to wait for the guy to die before casting either on them would be my view. . .

Then I must ask again about the criticals with dead in X rounds. What happens when the X rounds go out? Does the soul leave the body? Is that the time to cast Lifekeeping or could you cast it before the rounds go out?

[Marc R]

At the end of X rounds, the target dies. . .after that the soul departs in the number of rounds determined by their race.

[Hubbaman]

At the end of X rounds, the target dies. . .after that the soul departs in the number of rounds determined by their race.

Aaah, that make sense. I must admit that I have always found the concept of death in RM a bit difficult. This means that you can save a person with a spear through the hart after an instant death as well. This will make our game easier to survive! 

[Marc R]

This is the reason why in many games, when the Cleric is the one who takes the insta-kill crit, everyone winces. . .hard.

[kevinmccollum]

I am going to disagree with the assertion that lifekeeping puts the body in suspended animation. Saying that keeping the soul in the body prevents deterioration because the body isn't really dead is the same as saying stat deterioration doesn't occur till after the soul leaves the body which is clearly not true based on the rules on death, dying and stat deterioration. Using a lifekeeping simply keeps the soul attached to the remains for an amount of time (varying on the spell used). the body could rot like crazy and the soul would still be attached. Preservation would keep that body from rotting. It would really take both spells to carry a corpse around for any length of time and have it repaired at some time after the "death" event.

[Chris Seal]

I am going to disagree with the assertion that lifekeeping puts the body in suspended animation. Saying that keeping the soul in the body prevents deterioration because the body isn't really dead is the same as saying stat deterioration doesn't occur till after the soul leaves the body which is clearly not true based on the rules on death, dying and stat deterioration. Using a lifekeeping simply keeps the soul attached to the remains for an amount of time (varying on the spell used). the body could rot like crazy and the soul would still be attached. Preservation would keep that body from rotting. It would really take both spells to carry a corpse around for any length of time and have it repaired at some time after the "death" event.

This is the way I have always interpreted Lifekeeping/Preservation.

[Marc R]

The waffle in the spell descriptions is that both use the word "coma" which implies a not dead state, but neither seems to actually be usable except on dead people as targets, which is kinda confusing and makes them seem to be tiered versions of each other, with Lifekeeping being the improved version of Preservation.

OTOH I have known plenty of GMs who'd agree with you, per my comments above. . .so It's possible I'm mistaken in my personal interpretation.