Topic: Random Magic Staff Thought...

[kevinmccollum]

Also pointed out, the fact that weapons could be taken away while walking sticks could make it past the guards (who are protecting the cursed king of Gondor)..

Fire all of those guards. Fast.

[Witchking20k]

whats so limiting about a staff?  It hits easier than most other melee weapons, and delivers decent concussion hits.

I don't personally use the 2handed parry limitation with a staff, though.

If some lowely mage wants to spend their time & dps on a wizards war mattock, let them.....9DPs/level is limiting enough in my mind.....LOL

[providence13]

I'm allowing the Magic Staff List for a Long Bow...

If you use the " must average missile weapon and ammo" rule, it is even less powerful as a weapon.
Availability of magic arrows is easily controlled. 

And, it is more awkward than a staff; it's obviously a weapon.

[markc]

I'm allowing the Magic Staff List for a Long Bow...

If you use the " must average missile weapon and ammo" rule, it is even less powerful as a weapon.
Availability of magic arrows is easily controlled. 

And, it is more awkward than a staff; it's obviously a weapon.

I can see that.
MDC

[dutch206]

A tetsubo is a staff made out of steel.  Technically, it IS a staff, but.....

I suppose what I am saying is that a munchkin/rules lawyer will have a field day trying to pin you to a specific definition of what a staff is.  (Then try to hang you with your own words) 

[providence13]

A tetsubo is a staff made out of steel.  Technically, it IS a staff, but.....

I suppose what I am saying is that a munchkin/rules lawyer will have a field day trying to pin you to a specific definition of what a staff is.  (Then try to hang you with your own words)  Gnashing your teeth

Dutch206, You do make a good point, of course.
Would I allow Shield Mastery with a hand axe?
No.
A  shoe that returns to the hand when thrown... now that's funny.

This guy is a Magician. He's never going to be very good with it. Heck, even if his bowstring breaks, I'm not allowing it to work until it's strung... 

Is that mean?

[Greyaxe]

Would you guys allow a spell mastered casting of the Magic Staff spells (EssCo) to be used on a pole arm?  Something that's a wood staff with a metal axe, spear head, or blade...

No nothing metal, however i did have a character craft a aprticularly hard wood (magical forging) into a trident like staff, which uses the spear attack table. But no metal, never.

[providence13]

I've had some more ideas to break the will of my players on Magic Staff.

The +5 Spell Adder is powerful. But it only works with attuned Lists. Even these took hours of each day for weeks to get the staff attuned to the Lists.
If somehow, you've actually let them attune to their known Lists... what if the staff gets out of 'tune?

Another caster touches the staff, caster is subject to a spell, spell fumbles, major magic area, too close to the microwave/crystal ball, whatever,
any of these could make the staff screwy for a while. I'm not saying permanently damage the item (unless it is evil and must be destroyed!!), but even a temporary hindrance could prove troublesome in a time of need.
One round per RR failed vs spells attacking caster... might be a good start.

"All I tried to do was "bump" my I-staff against this pallantir thingy". "Now it doesn't work the same.." :'(

[Cory Magel]

Ok, so if I was the GM I'd have a hard time saying you couldn't accomplish this if you're smart.

You have a large, thick staff enchanted... and have a blacksmith mount a blade to it. Instant magic polearm.  Now, mind you, the actual "Pole arm" part would have no magic.  Therefore I don't really see a huge problem with power balance.  You have a magic staff that you can use as a normal pole-arm.  Big whoop.

So... you ask, what if the player wants to mount a magic blade on the magic staff?  Well if I wanted to stop such an action: A) He'd either be removing the blade from an existing shaft and I'd advise it wouldn't be a good idea to mess with the already existing magic pole-arm. Or B) The player would have to have the blade MADE and, therefore, would be paying a %*$#load of gold to have it done and hence likely be a well advanced character already and no imbalance would ensue.

That's just me tho.

[Greyaxe]

Ok, so if I was the GM I'd have a hard time saying you couldn't accomplish this if you're smart.

You have a large, thick staff enchanted... and have a blacksmith mount a blade to it. Instant magic polearm.  Now, mind you, the actual "Pole arm" part would have no magic.  Therefore I don't really see a huge problem with power balance.  You have a magic staff that you can use as a normal pole-arm.  Big whoop.

So... you ask, what if the player wants to mount a magic blade on the magic staff?  Well if I wanted to stop such an action: A) He'd either be removing the blade from an existing shaft and I'd advise it wouldn't be a good idea to mess with the already existing magic pole-arm. Or B) The player would have to have the blade MADE and, therefore, would be paying a %*$#load of gold to have it done and hence likely be a well advanced character already and no imbalance would ensue.

That's just me tho.

Of course now that you are "wearing" metal you will incur casting penalties. I would increase them as well as the metal in my opinion would stifle the casting of your staff, now that it is the focal for all your casting.

[providence13]

Greyaxe, the spell does say the staff can be metal, specifically.

But if that's how you want to use it, more power to you!

Or less power because its metal.....
hehehe..

[Greyaxe]

Greyaxe, the spell does say the staff can be metal, specifically.

But if that's how you want to use it, more power to you!

Or less power because its metal.....
hehehe..

Indeed it does.  I have two opinions on that. 
One, metal staff, that’s crap!!.  Ok with that outburst aside the entire point of essences is that is flows from living things.  Specifically ANY inert material like metal, including coins, reduces the flow of essence through the caster causing penalties; as such I will not allow staves to be made out of metal.  The spell is written incorrectly.  I understand the “canon” argument but in this case I believe it should be listed as errata. It is completely contrary to all rules surrounding Essence casting.

 
Two, we are not talking about a metal staff but a hunk of metal glued or tied to a staff which again satisfies my argument of a carried inert material.  This, in my opinion, is doubly difficult to overcome as the focal for your casting, the staff, is now at least partially wrapped in a magic dampening material.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Would you guys allow a spell mastered casting of the Magic Staff spells (EssCo) to be used on a pole arm?  Something that's a wood staff with a metal axe, spear head, or blade...

No, I would not. However, I would allow it to be spell mastered down into a rod (treat as a mace for attacks) or baton (i.e. a wand; treat as a club for attacks). Essentially, since the item is being both created and enchanted as a spell casting focus, I think that retaining a relative simplicity of form is going to be required.

Additionally, a pole-arm does more damage than a staff, so allowing this would essentially be upping the power of the spell (never a good idea to allow, IMO).

You are specifically asking about using the list with items made out of multiple materials, and that is where a large portion of the problem lies.

This list specifically creates the staff from a single material, nor does it require other processes (honing, sharpening) to complete the process (i.e. personally, I would rule that part of the casting process makes the items tougher than normal, so that such processes (i.e. sharpening) would not work). So while you could have a mage that makes a staff that looks like a pole-arm (made entirely of metal), it would still be a staff and work like one, IMO.
[oRule]
Whether or not the item is made of metal is of no consequence. The item becomes intrinsically tied to the caster (look at the consequences if it is destroyed, or if he tries to cast without using it), so that the staff would NOT count in a negative fashion for casting, regardless of what it is actually composed of.
[/oRule]
NOTE: The above in blue refers specifically to the staff created by the magic staff spell, and is based on the wording of the spell itself, as well as the notes for the spell list.

[Greyaxe]

Whether or not the item is made of metal is of no consequence. The item becomes intrinsically tied to the caster (look at the consequences if it is destroyed, or if he tries to cast without using it), so that the staff would NOT count in a negative fashion for casting, regardless of what it is actually composed of.

Could I build a set of Full Plate armor in this way also? Magically forged and tied to the caster?  Eliminating all casting penalties?  If Magical Forging and Bound to the characer are the rules then this opens the door for all kinds of whaky magic "bound" items.  Are you sure?  If so it will be.......

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Could I build a set of Full Plate armor in this way also? Magically forged and tied to the caster?  Eliminating all casting penalties?  If Magical Forging and Bound to the characer are the rules then this opens the door for all kinds of whaky magic "bound" items.  Are you sure?  If so it will be.......

Couple of points......

1) The spells from the Mage Staff list, intrinsically tie the staff to the caster. If the staff gets destroyed, the caster takes damage, and then is also penalized in his casting of spells. Just losing the staff, or not having it in hand also penalizes the caster. This is according to the description of the spell and the notes at the end of the spell list. Please note the part I bolded.

2) IIRC, there are already items such as you describe, armor without casting penalties, or items that have no casting penalties that protect as if they were armor. So, such things already exist.

Now if you want to personally tie armor to the caster in the same manner as the staff, that would essentially mean all attacks that damage the armor would also damage the caster as well. Just think of all the lovely "armor destroyed" criticals.. hehe 

3) The biggest difference in what you described, and the magic staff, however, is that the staff ALSO is a casting focus and is required to be in hand when casting spells. Having armor as a casting focus would be problematic at best. IMO, anything used as a casting focus should be held (amulets are iffy, but they can be grabbed and held or held up while casting)

[providence13]

Well, you could have armor that acts as a Daily Item...
But you would still need TA to cast your own spells while wearing it.

Metal magic items have little problems with Essence; invisibility rings, flametongue swords, shield +10, etc.


The amount of metal in a "staff" wouldn't be very much. Too much and it wouldn't be an effective "staff".
I think it is the amount that matters, not just the fact that it's there.

But if you wanted an anti-faerie campaign, it could be cool to say that any ferrous items messed up their essence.. and did an extra crit against elves. Or slaying.

[Greyaxe]

Could I build a set of Full Plate armor in this way also? Magically forged and tied to the caster?  Eliminating all casting penalties?  If Magical Forging and Bound to the characer are the rules then this opens the door for all kinds of whaky magic "bound" items.  Are you sure?  If so it will be.......

Couple of points......

1) The spells from the Mage Staff list, intrinsically tie the staff to the caster. If the staff gets destroyed, the caster takes damage, and then is also penalized in his casting of spells. Just losing the staff, or not having it in hand also penalizes the caster. This is according to the description of the spell and the notes at the end of the spell list. Please note the part I bolded.

2) IIRC, there are already items such as you describe, armor without casting penalties, or items that have no casting penalties that protect as if they were armor. So, such things already exist.

Now if you want to personally tie armor to the caster in the same manner as the staff, that would essentially mean all attacks that damage the armor would also damage the caster as well. Just think of all the lovely "armor destroyed" criticals.. hehe  

3) The biggest difference in what you described, and the magic staff, however, is that the staff ALSO is a casting focus and is required to be in hand when casting spells. Having armor as a casting focus would be problematic at best. IMO, anything used as a casting focus should be held (amulets are iffy, but they can be grabbed and held or held up while casting)

I understand your points and agree completely, armor is an extreme example.  However ultimately this ruling allows the creator of the thread to actually create any item as a "staff". The material (a large lump of steel) would be magically forged into a pole arm.  Given the material is magically forged it could be any shape or design.  Do I read that correctly?  

So short answer if you magically forge the pole arm from inception the answer is yes, if you try to attach the blade after the fact the answer is no.

[Greyaxe]

The amount of metal in a "staff" wouldn't be very much. Too much and it wouldn't be an effective "staff".
I think it is the amount that matters, not just the fact that it's there.

The recent decision overrides that opinion.  According to the post the staff could be made completly out of metal. Which would weigh about 30lbs for a 6' staff (apx)
Whcih according to the chart on pg 141 of Essence Comanion would be a -50 penalty to cast any spell.
-2 per lb above 5 lbs of inorganic material.
This however has been overturned.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I understand your points and agree completely, armor is an extreme example.  However ultimately this ruling allows the creator of the thread to actually create any item as a "staff". The material (a large lump of steel) would be magically forged into a pole arm.  Given the material is magically forged it could be any shape or design.  Do I read that correctly?  

Note that only the part in Navy Blue is the ruling. Note also that that particular ruling applies ONLY to that spell list and is based on what the spells say and what the notes for the list says.

The rest of my post was my personal opinions, not an official ruling. And my opinion that was a spell mastery could make the staff look like a pole arm, but that it would still be a staff.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The recent decision overrides that opinion.  According to the post the staff could be made completly out of metal. Which would weigh about 30lbs for a 6' staff (apx)

30 lbs? How do you arrive at that figure? A metal staff would be thinner than a wooden one. 30 lbs sounds a bit excessive (I figure about 10 lbs is more likely).