Topic: Spells, Scaling and distance

[Puin]

Hello,

Our first HARP sessions are scheduled for mid january so, as a GM, I'm finishing details.

And I see for our elementalist player ... you can scale up spells to reach far away.

1) So U can scale for 1 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 150'. U can cast it in 1 rnd and have a -5 penalty.
2) Scale 2 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 200'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -10 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -20.
3) Scale 3 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 250'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -15 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -25.
...
x) Scale 6 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 400'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -30 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -40.

My question is, do you add others malus for distance, as accuracy may fail as in bows??

A Composite Bow fires every 3 rounds (talents besides) but at 400' has a -200 penalty!!!!!!  (I know that this bow has a Medium Attack size and the elementals bolts are Tiny but spells are scalable even further!!).

I'm missing something?

Any answer will be appreciated !! 

[ReaperWolf]

Hello,

Our first HARP sessions are scheduled for mid january so, as a GM, I'm finishing details.

And I see for our elementalist player ... you can scale up spells to reach far away.

1) So U can scale for 1 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 150'. U can cast it in 1 rnd and have a -5 penalty.
2) Scale 2 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 200'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -10 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -20.
3) Scale 3 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 250'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -15 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -25.
...
x) Scale 6 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 400'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -30 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -40.

My question is, do you add others malus for distance, as accuracy may fail as in bows??

A Composite Bow fires every 3 rounds (talents besides) but at 400' has a -200 penalty!!!!!!  (I know that this bow has a Medium Attack size and the elementals bolts are Tiny but spells are scalable even further!!).

I'm missing something?

Any answer will be appreciated !! 

I'm no authority but just because the bolt CAN reach distant target doesn't mean it does so accurately. Distance should be a factor and should come off the roll as should cover, the target's and source's movement rates.

For every PP you spend to cast the spell, you face a -5 penalty to the spellcasting roll so as you scale up a spell it becomes increasingly difficult to cast.

>>ReaperWolf

[Puin]

I'm no authority but just because the bolt CAN reach distant target doesn't mean it does so accurately. Distance should be a factor and should come off the roll as should cover, the target's and source's movement rates.

For every PP you spend to cast the spell, you face a -5 penalty to the spellcasting roll so as you scale up a spell it becomes increasingly difficult to cast.

>>ReaperWolf

1) Thanks !! I do think similar and I plan on adding RI to spells using the base range as RI 0, so at 400' an elemental bolt will have an extra -30 for target being in RI 3.

2) That also means that I'm thinking in giving half the RI 0 a Point Blank bonus of +15 for attack spells that need aiming  and can scale reach!

3) Calm, Charm, Confusion, Distraction, Drain Life, Fear, Harm, Jolts, Sleep ... don't need aiming but can scale reach ... just thinking ...

Lets wait for the authority comments to see what HARP designers had/have in mind !!

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Hello,

Our first HARP sessions are scheduled for mid january so, as a GM, I'm finishing details.

And I see for our elementalist player ... you can scale up spells to reach far away.

1) So U can scale for 1 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 150'. U can cast it in 1 rnd and have a -5 penalty.
2) Scale 2 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 200'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -10 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -20.
3) Scale 3 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 250'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -15 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -25.
...
x) Scale 6 PP your elemental bolt from 100' to 400'. U can cast it in 2 rnd and have a -30 penalty or in 1 rnd for up to a -40.

My question is, do you add others malus for distance, as accuracy may fail as in bows??

A Composite Bow fires every 3 rounds (talents besides) but at 400' has a -200 penalty!!!!!!  (I know that this bow has a Medium Attack size and the elementals bolts are Tiny but spells are scalable even further!!).

I'm missing something?

Any answer will be appreciated !! 

PPs are finite is the first thing and getting that 400' at Medium attack size will cost you 15 PP (in the upcoming HARP Fantasy core rulebook, Elemental Bolts have had their base cost increased to 5 PP). That 10 points of scaling is a -50 penalty. Now the important thing about Elemental Attack spells is that their OB is the caster's skill in the spell. Assume a caster with 15 skill ranks in Elemental Bolt and zero stat bonus, so skill bonus is 60. That skill bonus has to be modified by the scaling penalty (thus range is already taken into account), so 60 -50 goes down to 10. Of course it is also a 15 PP spell, so for a personal mana caster that also requires 3 rounds to cast without penalty (other mana sources take longer).  If you fumble the spell, then there is an automatic +20 to the Fumble roll for simply being an Elemental Attack spell, another +10 for being scaled, and if it was fast cast, another +10. (And of course, if you wear armor, you have to scale the spell higher)

An Elemental Attack is a blast of magic, either it has the oomph to get there or it does not and the caster can and must choose how much oomph to put in. Of course if the caster does not know how far the target is away and underpowers the spell (combat perception), then it falls short. An arrow depends on the strength of the archer and the quality of the bow. Thus point-blank shots do more damage, distant shots do less as the energy is used up simply getting there but the archer can simply fire the arrow and the player roll the dice.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

 

[Puin]

PPs are finite is the first thing and getting that 400' at Medium attack size will cost you 15 PP (in the upcoming HARP Fantasy core rulebook, Elemental Bolts have had their base cost increased to 5 PP). That 10 points of scaling is a -50 penalty. Now the important thing about Elemental Attack spells is that their OB is the caster's skill in the spell. Assume a caster with 15 skill ranks in Elemental Bolt and zero stat bonus, so skill bonus is 60. That skill bonus has to be modified by the scaling penalty (thus range is already taken into account), so 60 -50 goes down to 10. Of course it is also a 15 PP spell, so for a personal mana caster that also requires 3 rounds to cast without penalty (other mana sources take longer).  If you fumble the spell, then there is an automatic +20 to the Fumble roll for simply being an Elemental Attack spell, another +10 for being scaled, and if it was fast cast, another +10. (And of course, if you wear armor, you have to scale the spell higher)

An Elemental Attack is a blast of magic, either it has the oomph to get there or it does not and the caster can and must choose how much oomph to put in. Of course if the caster does not know how far the target is away and underpowers the spell (combat perception), then it falls short. An arrow depends on the strength of the archer and the quality of the bow. Thus point-blank shots do more damage, distant shots do less as the energy is used up simply getting there but the archer can simply fire the arrow and the player roll the dice.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Thanks Nicholas !!! I understand that your answer is to mean ... no, you don't get xtra penalties for scaling reach besides that of the scaling itself.
And arrows are also finite and you don't recover them so easily 

I'll gonna think of this anyway as I see some logic behind giving RI to spells ..........

Change in topic but ... how goes the new HARP ? ? ? ! ! ! If you increase the bolt, make sure to increase further more the ball  ... I can't wait for new products for HARP and for those that got into stasis.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Let's see, as written (check me on this)....

Attack/non attack (+10 or not)
Skill (diminishing return)
scaling (-5/PP flat)
time (-10/rd short or +5/rd long, max +30)

Notice that the major penalty modifier is linear, -5/PP forever. There are 2 positive modifiers, but one is subject to a cap (fairly low level cap, too) and the other is a diminishing return (5/2/1).

This suggests to me that beyond 10 PPs and base range, both the value per PP in casting it and the value per DP in learning skill in it is going to fall off sharply for pretty much any given spell.

I've given some thought to houseruling that the mod for extra time isn't capped at +30, but rather capped at the value of the scaling penalty of that individual casting. That way you can get your full skill bonus at any scaling, at any range.... if you can put enough time into casting it.

But fair warning, thought is about all I've put into this idea, I haven't playtested it.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Change in topic but ... how goes the new HARP ? ? ? ! ! ! If you increase the bolt, make sure to increase further more the ball  ... I can't wait for new products for HARP and for those that got into stasis.

The ball spell stayed the same. We applied the adjusted spell creation system consistently to all the spells in HARP Fantasy - some spells had their base cost reduced, some stayed the same (but possibly did more in their base form), some went up in base PP cost.

We now have just the Monster chapter and the Introduction chapter to fix for HARP Fantasy. the artists are already producing fantastic new interior illustrations.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Puin]

Thanks Nicholas, I do really appreciate your answers as I can't imagine how busy you, and a lot of others we are truly in debt, must be reanimating products and rebirthing HARP.

I read that in the new HARP Monsters, the base 75 in stats wil change, I understand that it saved a lot of time but .... I'll love the change since I'm always checking my copy for help and inspiration and I always have to change the stats to something I feel more reallistic (a Minoutar with St75, Ag75, Re75, Pr75?).

I made some series of 8 rols and ordered each one from lower to highest. Averaged all the lowest, and so forth up to the highests and I ended with this serie: 52,59,63,71,77,86,91,93.
Those are the stats I use for general NPCs and monsters, so my Minoutar fighter has 93St, 91Ag,86Co,77Qu,71In... obviously special NPCs and monster have special designed stats.

'bout the bolt, it get up to 5 and balls stayed at 6 ... You think it is balanced? It will be interesting to see wich one players will choose to maximize, but I bet for the ball ... no shield DB, 10' radius ... (we changed the +20 centerpoint to +0 and -20 to others. I read it in other post and tought it good idea).
I think I will tend to play the balls as something very visible and loudy that will attract all the foes eyes against the firer, something like "You wanna play rougth? You go down first!" ... well if there are foes remaining

Good job and best wishes too !!!