Topic: Tweaks for HARP Martial Law?

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The double jeopardy/benefit of armour is part of why armor adjustment has been made optional for the rerelease of Martial Law.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Zhaleskra]

I treated armor adjustment as optional when I ran my convention game last year. Never have been a fan of counting the same thing twice.

[Uriel]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but any chance to expand the weapons list a bit?

Kukri sure would be nice...and I can't recall anybody ever doing a Kris as a core book weapon.

-Ron

[Widukind]

I like to use the partial cover rules by ML because if you hit in the two second round a part of the body, the unhealmed head for instance, why i should to use the DB of my nonmagical kneepads if i hit an uncovered head?

[Zhaleskra]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but any chance to expand the weapons list a bit?

Kukri sure would be nice...and I can't recall anybody ever doing a Kris as a core book weapon.

The gamer part of me and the weapons knowledge part of me are having a fight over how to comment on this idea.

[Uriel]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but any chance to expand the weapons list a bit?

Kukri sure would be nice...and I can't recall anybody ever doing a Kris as a core book weapon.

The gamer part of me and the weapons knowledge part of me are having a fight over how to comment on this idea.

Not sure what your argument/stance is on either of these weapons, but at least it's sopme new posting/movement in the thread..

The kris, I don't have much of a familiarity with, but kukris are another matter. From the history of the weapon to using mine (Nepalalese Khukuri House, the same company that makes them for the British Gurka units) on everything from chopping firewood, to watermelons to dismantlement of a pesky DVD-player that had eaten one of my favorite dvds, I use it in a variety of instances. The science of the way that a Kukri blade delivers damage is different enough from either a dagger of hand axe (Folks often say that it lies somewhere between the two) that I think it deserves it's own entry. I would like to hear your thoughts as well.

Regarding the Kris, back when I play RM, we used the dagger table but increased bleeding results by 1, IIRC.


Uriel

[Zhaleskra]

Not sure what your argument/stance is on either of these weapons, but at least it's sopme new posting/movement in the thread..

The kris, I don't have much of a familiarity with, but kukris are another matter. From the history of the weapon to using mine (Nepalalese Khukuri House, the same company that makes them for the British Gurka units) on everything from chopping firewood, to watermelons to dismantlement of a pesky DVD-player that had eaten one of my favorite dvds, I use it in a variety of instances. The science of the way that a Kukri blade delivers damage is different enough from either a dagger of hand axe (Folks often say that it lies somewhere between the two) that I think it deserves it's own entry. I would like to hear your thoughts as well.

Here's what's going on in my head: As a gamer, I like the "illusion" of flexibility by having a heavily populated weapons list. From knowledge of some languages and experience in a theatrical combat troupe, I also want to see it trimmed. For example, in popular culture, "katana" refers to a particular single cutting edge sword. In Japanese, the word just means "sword". One reason I restrained myself is I don't want to be seen as lording my knowledge over other people.

We did have a kukri as a display weapon in the club, I'm pretty sure it was never used in the fights. Because of the curve, I'd say it's something of a slash only dagger. Sure you could stab someone with it, but it would be awkward.

I do/did have a small book on the Kris, mentioning both the uses of the weapon as a weapon and the superstitions regarding that. The club I was in mentioned the "dishonoring the weapon" by not drawing blood with the kukri, which in our case had a notch for exactly that purpose. The kris was used for some executions in Malaysia, striking to the heart, and they did wipe the victim's chest to hide the blood, so I'd say increased bleeding is a good idea. The pictures in the book showed me many designs of the kris, from barely wavy at all to super wavy, from dagger to sword. The dagger version I'd say is more of a puncture weapon, sword can be both puncture and slash.

[Maelstrom]

I still dont understand the elemental crit issue so I may still be missing a whole issue here...

Regards
Jason Brisbane

That issue is that there is no benefit to scaling an elemental attack spell.  Scale the spell from tiny to small incurs a -10 spellcasting roll but the result of the roll will be the same as a tiny attack.  If I roll a 65 a tiny critical will be the same as a scaled up small critical because the table simply shifts the crticial by 10 points for scaling.  Since the maximum crit result for a tiny crit is an instant kill, there's no reason to scale the spell to increase damage.  Dead is dead whether it's by a knife wound directly to the heart or being at ground zero to a nuclear bomb.

[WoeRie]

You forgot to mention that by scaling a spell it is also possible to increase the casting time, still with the same result.

[sunwolf]

Maybe the elemental damage scaling isn't a flaw with Hack & Slash but a flaw in the spell design itself.  I always thought the scaling penalties for increasing damage on spells were too severe considering that the spell already is going to take longer to cast in most cases.

[Puin]

Well, as we are still starting our first HARP adventure (only two sessions done) we are still tinkering with it.

As HR, with H&S, we capped ALL the attacks as T(90),S(105),M(120),L(135) and H(150). Thus a tiny attack still does damage but encourages scaling up spells as they not only change column but have higher caps.

Special attacks like Power Attack (Melee) and Aiming(Missile) may trade off bonus for higher caps and of course Ambush and Sniping override them. Spells just have to be scaled for desired result.

Our young 3d lvl spellcasters still go with Tiny attacks mostly but our elementalist has discovered the results of a (M)edium Elemental Ball and has begun to scale it up as he has enough skill to do so. It seems he doesn't regret investing more PP and rnds in those attacks so it seems the HR works, even if it lowers the original H&S conceptual outcomes.

As conclusion, we like keeping magic with "limitations" as it can go up to "sky's the limit" concept. So if you want to do more damage, scale up and expend your precious PPs and wait some more rnds or just fast cast and get some x-tra malus. I know it sounds ... "tyranny!" but in a way it keeps spellcaster(SPC) longer in this world and non-SPC can coexist longer in a game.

Just my two cents.   

[jd.]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but any chance to expand the weapons list a bit?

Kukri sure would be nice...and I can't recall anybody ever doing a Kris as a core book weapon.

The gamer part of me and the weapons knowledge part of me are having a fight over how to comment on this idea.

That triggers something I'd like to touch upon ... First, please understand that I only have read HARP Lite, and am on my way to get the Essentials CD at some point. So maybe the point is moot because what I am about to ask has been included before and will again.

Still, I would like to insist that not all of us have a weapons knowledge part. Therefore, I feel that at least one picture of every single weapon should be included at some point, with pointers about what's what. (If you can't make up your mind which one is the javelin, the heavy javelin, the spear or the pike, you see what I mean.) My beloved old Rolemaster Arms Law & Claw Law did, but only accompanying the main weapon tables, so we couldn't really have an idea what the optional weapons looked like. (I remember there was the long sword and the broad sword, and only one was depicted.) So please, pictures with captions.

Aside from that, I already asked a question there on RPG.net, that Mr Caldwell was nice enough to answer. The dreaded Morning Star Question. No originality here: that reviewer had already noticed it way before me. In a nutshell, the Mace is less expensive than the Morning Star and fumbles less often for the same damage range. So there is no reason for a PC to get a Morning Star. (And no reason for a NPC except the kind that the GM wants to be mocked to death by his or her players.)

So I'm including it here, if anyone wants to offer improvements about it. I'd suggest one: give some weapons special traits. WFRP 2 had those, but I'm pretty sure they existed before in another game I did not read. If you don't get it, a trait is a small tweak to how the weapon works, like it improves the wielder's initiative or is harder to parry or such stuff.

Someone proposed that chains weapons should reduce the defensive bonus from shields since they can reach around them. According to a friend of mine who is in a theatrical medieval combat troupe, the only use a soldier had for flails was to crush the shield-holding hand, after which the soldier shifted to another weapon, so this would fit neatly. (Or messily, depending on how you look at it.)

Other possibilities would be to increase some types of damage or decrease others (as in, a crushing weapon that also has spikes would increase the HP loss by a few points). What do you guys and gals think?

[talsharien]

Any news on a release date?

[Zhaleskra]

jd., I think your mace/morning star example is about a difference in playstyles. While I consider expense a good reason to choose one weapon over another, the "fumbles more often" is too metagamey for what I prefer.

As a former member of a theatrical combat troupe myself, there was a lot of talk about "use once then switch to something more reasonable" weapons. Most prominently with the 6 foot long, 15 pound sword.

[Kristen Mork]

"fumbles more often" is too metagamey for what I prefer.

Methinks that warriors would quickly learn which weapons are more likely to harm the wielder and (all else being equal) to eschew those weapons.  Not at all meta-gamey (IMHO).

(I once had a player who didn't think it looked right for a barbarian to wear a helmet, but he liked how helmets mitigated head crits (a meta-game argument). Then, he realized that safety was the reason warriors wore helmets, too, so it wasn't a meta-game line of reasoning at all.)

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Any news on a release date?

Waiting on achieving signoff on HARP Fantasy and getting it released. Martial Law then goes into layout.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Zhaleskra]

Methinks that warriors would quickly learn which weapons are more likely to harm the wielder and (all else being equal) to eschew those weapons.  Not at all meta-gamey (IMHO).

(I once had a player who didn't think it looked right for a barbarian to wear a helmet, but he liked how helmets mitigated head crits (a meta-game argument). Then, he realized that safety was the reason warriors wore helmets, too, so it wasn't a meta-game line of reasoning at all.)

This is what I was getting at. From what seems to prevail on gaming forums, players seem not to put the in character reason along with the mechanical reason, which is why it tends to appear metagamey. Has a chain, more likely to hit self or longer shaft, hitting something than what you intend more likely. That kind of thing.

[Zieleniuk]

Will this version have any expanded talents for Rangers/Fighters....stuff like multi-shot, multi-attack and the like.

[Leyoz]

I think expanded talents are really needed, particularly for non-casters.

[Erik Sharma]

Well most people have already pointed out most of the issues I had.
I like almost everything in ML and haven't found any big game changers. The extra detail do increase the time to resolve combat but this is a trade off I can live with and in some cases welcome. The big dislike though is the already mentioned double effect of armors. The idea for the rules are great but they don't really work well together. Instead it should be an option of using just one of them.

• Option 1: Armor gives DB but no damage reduction.
• Option 2: Armor gives no DB but instead gives damage reduction.

I do like H&S rules too. They are much faster and you still have the option to add hit locations if you want to make the  crits a little more varied because of the change in effects depending on where you hit. Just a note the suggested way to see where you hit doesn't really work but we resolved that issue by just adding an extra roll to find the location that was hit. Scaling for the elemental spells is the other famous issue which I dislike but haven't found it to be a biggie.Our groups so far has been fighter heavy groups.

HB11 is a nother issue and don't like it at all. The system is not bad or anything and well proven in RM/MERP. But I always felt that if I wanna use a combat system so similar to RM why not play RM instead?