Topic: Channeling Companion Issues

[providence13]

Sorry to be vague, my comments were inferred to Cory. I've never submitted anything before/sold intellectual property rights. I appreciated learning a bit about the process. 

[rdanhenry]

The Warlock lists has some possible balance issues. One that leaps out is on Transformations, the 1st level spell offers +5 DB. You can also get +10 DB, at 15th level. This seems a huge leap in level given the difference in the bonus.

This is on par with other similar spells in power level.  Consider many lists give a +5 DB spell at 3rd level, but against all attacks made against the caster.  The Warlock's 1st level spell is only applicable to attacks the caster is aware of, which is a serious factor in effectiveness.  Also consider that the "Shield" spells, often at 3rd level for even Semi's, are five times more powerful than the Warlock's.

You're missing my point here. I'm not saying that the 1st level spell is overpowered; I'm saying that the 1st and 15th level spells are wildly out of scale. 15x the cost should not give 2x the effect. Compare Faith's Shield in the same book. The +5 spell is 3rd level, but the +10 spell is 7th level. If 1st level is +5, 15th level (esp. as a True spell) ought to do better than +10. Given that the Open list Light's Way offers a +10 DB spell at 3rd level, I'd say the 15th level spell here is underpowered.

That said, the Warlock was not one the professions I wrote (co-author did that one) so I can't comment a whole lot on it.  I suspect much of it was pulled from the RM2 version of the profession but with some adjustment for power level (a lot of RM2 stuff needs toning down for RMSS).

Well this list is all new; although somewhat related to one of the original Warlock lists, in that it deals with bodily changes, it is entirely rewritten and works quite differently, so RM2 is not to blame for its imbalances. (Probably some of the other things that caught my eye as potentially problematic were carryovers, though.)

[Ecthelion]

Really, the idea was for there to be no template at all.  Instead you'd take an existing profession template that most closely matched your concept and swap out base lists from similar caster types (Pure, Hybrid, Semi).  You would also modify profession bonuses, everyman/occupational/restricted skills.  We saw no reason to create more templates as there were plenty already to simulate anything you wanted to do fairly well already.  For example, if you wanted to create an Anti-Paladin there's no reason not to use the existing Paladin template and just modify the spell lists.  When you're talking about spell casters it's largely the spell lists that differentiate them in the end.

The problem with leaving things like swapping out spell lists or adjusting profession bonuses to the GM is that many GMs won't be able to do this properly and not break the game balance (the old RM2 Companions are full of attempts by presumably experienced RM GMs to create new professions by simply swapping out a few spell lists and modifying some skill costs and bonuses - and many of these professions seem overpowered). This is IMO especially true for gaming groups new to RM. The Priest template and the example Spheres of Influence presented a GM and player alike a nice set of pre-built (and hopefully more or less balanced) Pure Channeling user variants, taking away the burden of modifying existing professions from the GM. Hence my request to create Spheres of Influence for Hybrid and Semi Spell Users.


P.S.: I would even go so far as saying that this Template + Spheres of Influence (Channeling) or Schools of Magic (Essence/Mentalism) would be the right approach for RM in general, thereby vastly increasing the possibilities to create characters.

[Cory Magel]

You're missing my point here. I'm not saying that the 1st level spell is overpowered; I'm saying that the 1st and 15th level spells are wildly out of scale. 15x the cost should not give 2x the effect. Compare Faith's Shield in the same book. The +5 spell is 3rd level, but the +10 spell is 7th level. If 1st level is +5, 15th level (esp. as a True spell) ought to do better than +10. Given that the Open list Light's Way offers a +10 DB spell at 3rd level, I'd say the 15th level spell here is underpowered.

Well it is a Hybrid Spell Caster and this spell is able to be stacked with things like Shield and Aura spells (among others).  The Warlock has good access to Channeling and Mentalism Open and Closed lists which have a plethora of defensive spells.  You don't want to allow a player to stack DB spell on top of DB spell to the point of ridiculousness.  Then combine that with some of the penalty spells that can be cast on a foe too.

This is where I actually have a bit of a problem with our Priest concept.  You don't like a melee defense spell intended for a Pure/Hybrid caster and are comparing it to a spell list that is intended for a close combat type of Priest.  It's almost akin to saying "Why doesn't my Mage stand up in melee combat as well as your Paladin?"  This is the problem with the Priest concept... the gamers need experience when building a profession using it.  You don't get a set of six awesome spell lists.  You get (on average) two great, two good, and two average lists.  You shouldn't be good at too many things.

[Cory Magel]

Thanks for the history and background info.
  So how does this work? You submitted extra material and were paid for it. So even though it wasn't used, you can't make it available to others because 'the company that paid you' now owns the material?
Gotcha.

We were given a page count that we had to stay within and we pushed that to the limit.  Obviously from my comments we had extra material.  One more profession that wasn't included (basically a Semi Healer), a more customizable Priest system, etc.  We could have made that book huge if we actually wanted to get into actual creation of religions themselves.  That is a good example of something that we didn't even try to get into.  Not only would it have increased the page count significantly, but I'm not so sure how useful it would have been to veteran RM users (which was the target client base at that time).

You got paid for the material that was published, so all the extras we didn't get anything for.  Course, we don't want to get into what we actually got out of it as that was near the end of the original ICE.  A lot of the stuff we'd have liked to include we never even worked up beyond outline because we weren't going to be granted the page count needed.  I would really have liked to have been given about 50% more pages to work with, we could have easily filled them.  I think the Avatar topic would have been one of the first additions, especially since we were fans/users of The Primal Order cap system (which discusses that in great depth).

[Cory Magel]

The problem with leaving things like swapping out spell lists or adjusting profession bonuses to the GM is that many GMs won't be able to do this properly and not break the game balance (the old RM2 Companions are full of attempts by presumably experienced RM GMs to create new professions by simply swapping out a few spell lists and modifying some skill costs and bonuses - and many of these professions seem overpowered). This is IMO especially true for gaming groups new to RM. The Priest template and the example Spheres of Influence presented a GM and player alike a nice set of pre-built (and hopefully more or less balanced) Pure Channeling user variants, taking away the burden of modifying existing professions from the GM. Hence my request to create Spheres of Influence for Hybrid and Semi Spell Users.

As I mentioned above, this is where my concern with the Priest system is.  We talk in the book specifically about not stacking a Priest with a bunch of kick-ass base lists and, as you mention, it is one of the reasons the example list was really needed.  I'm not entirely happy with all the examples, but they gave a good idea of how to try and balance the power out.

[providence13]

You've been very forthcoming and clear. Thank you.

[Ynglaur]

Agreed: great discussion.  Thank you.

[mocking bird]

So I'm simply saying that I prefer something written by a new age hippie like Greg Stafford who has paganism in mind rather than something written by someone whose primary frame of reference seems to be Christianity.

And then you would have to have a chapter on the difference between magic & magick.    (I am only half joking as I have seen a rather lengthy and heated thread on an occult board I used to frequent.)

To be honest I don't think I ever read any of the historical background in the CC.  I already have read enough history and about how I see magic to work that I usually just skip such things in books.

If I had one criticism about the book in general it would be corruption.  First off that the term corruption was used.  This brings the the kinds to 3 depending on what other books you own - elemental and arcane - which gets a little confusing.  The point values also seem really really low but then again it is a slippery slope downward.

But overall, the mythic has to be one of my favorite classes out there.

[Cory Magel]

The Mythic is probably one of our groups favorite pieces in the CC.   A decent amount of material (maybe half?) we had already been using in our campaigns for years, we just had to translate them into more mainstream RM (tone a few things down, kind of 'standardize' some things that were home-brew, etc), but it was one of the new and more original bits, a little inspiration from the Mage Hunter, but with a religious twist.  We'd been creating spell lists based on RM2 lists, as well as some of our own, and swapping out spell lists on professions like the Ranger, Cleric and Chaotic long before I even sent the proposal for the CC into ICE.  Just as I use the Martial Arts Companion in order to spice up all Pure Arms Users I think the Channeling Companion's Priest concept should point the way to all kinds of customized professions for the GM's that hadn't been doing that already.

I've got a fairly well thought out idea of how the various kinds of magic work in 'my little world' (especially Channeling) but it's not something I would have tried to include in the CC as "the" explanation.  The how's and why's of things needed to stay somewhat generic in order to fit in with the most RM users own customized campaigns.

[Cory Magel]

I'd sent these before, but figured I'd post em here.

In Talents and Flaws, 13.0 page 51 there is the Summoner Friend (Minor) and Summoner Friend (Greater).
There should be a Summoner Friend (Major) that costs 30 Points and gives you a Mid Level Summoner Friend.

[Marc R]

Cory, check Rdan's first post this thread, any comments on the rest?

[Cory Magel]

Cory, check Rdan's first post this thread, any comments on the rest?

I think I covered it all in my first reply to the thread.  Did I miss anything anyone was curious about?

[Marc R]

I missed part of your answer last read through, saw it now, you covered it all thanks.

[providence13]

Mythic Base List: Vengeance
Block Channel 8th, only applies to the skill Channeling, right. This has nothing to do with a target caster's innate PP.

At least that's how I read it.

The Mythic is pretty tough. I'm kinda glad no one has used it yet. 

[Cory Magel]

That's correct providence13.  Although, unless you incredibly extended out the duration it wouldn't have much impact on normal PP regeneration anyhow.  But, yes, the intention is to simply block the use of the actual Channeling skill so your target can't receive that kind of help.