Author Topic: Channeling Companion Issues  (Read 4767 times)

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Offline rdanhenry

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Channeling Companion Issues
« on: June 16, 2011, 03:53:58 AM »
Actually, there aren't many. It's one of the most well-edited RM books and I don't think the parts I'm not using are badly done. I'll omit the duration of the Aquatic/Land Forms list spells since those were posted on lately (although the correction still needs to be added to the errata).

Basically this post is going to be quibbles:

It should at least have been considered that one might take the position that gods do not have sources of power, they are sources of power. The "gods draw power from their worshipers" trope has frankly been overused, in gaming especially, to the point it has become cliched.

The suggested information for defining religions in chapter 4 is focused on trivia. It isn't useless, but it is incomplete.

The attempt to handle grace and corruption was about as good as one could hope for, but I think any capable GM is going to be better off winging it. Even the author can't stick to the quantitative framework when dealing with transgressions. A "grace number" isn't something that should be accessible to the character anyway. Still, it is probably a workable system if you need one. I do caution about too much tightness in slapping down transgressions. Keep it loose enough that you can have heretics who still have their powers; there's just too much fun in theological intrafaith conflict to let some uptight divine bureaucrat spoil it.

The Warlock lists has some possible balance issues. One that leaps out is on Transformations, the 1st level spell offers +5 DB. You can also get +10 DB, at 15th level. This seems a huge leap in level given the difference in the bonus.

My final comments are on the "spheres of influence" concept. Spheres of influence are interpretations of gods; their definition is in specific myths. In application to real world gods, they often arise only upon a civilization reaching a point where a sophisticated elite tries to rationalize its mythology, establishing a sense of order over a chaotic jumble of beliefs that had hitherto coexisted without analysis of their possible conflicts. In any case, such ideas did not constrain the god within the sphere. Consider Poseidon, god of the sea, but also the creator of horses and the producer of earthquakes. An authentic selection of lists for his priests would not match a list simply for a generic "sea god". If one wishes to create authentic-seeming religions, look less at "spheres" and create some actual stories about the gods to establish their personalities and influence. Then use these as the basis for priestly spell selection.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 06:27:54 AM »
I look forward to the supplement I'm sure you have in the works to cover all the listed short comings of Channeling Companion.  Sounds like a good read.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 09:35:31 AM »
I rather like the idea that "immature" religions in a fantasy setting might be all over the place.  A tribal shaman might have powers from a wide variety of spheres, and may or may not attribute certain spheres to particular Powers in the world.  In fact, such Powers may remain nameless.  As a theology matures, it becomes more defined: Powers get names, possibly locations, and defined spheres of influence.  As it matures further, the theology becomes restrictive ("You're a priest of Poseidon!  You aren't permitted to channel magic to summon fire!"  Eventually the magical traditions break down, and a new one must be formed.

From my perspective, I see Channeling lists as heavily influenced by the Power from which they are being sourced, but also influenced by the beliefs of the practitioner, as evinced in the magical tradition in which he/she is practicing.

Offline providence13

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 10:37:05 AM »
It does seem entirely possible that a specific religion could have different spheres of influence.
For me, this is best represented by the choice of Base Lists. You might have to pick 3 or 4 that define the faith, but the others could represent a personal relationship with the power. If that is how it's defined in your game world.

I do wish a discussion on political religious doctrine vs inspired doctrine could have been squeezed in the book.
Someone could be 'excommunicated' by the people of the church, branded a heretic, etc, without falling from grace, so to speak. The Power could support them even if the church politics don't.

What if you cast Lifegiving on a friend who isn't of the same faith? If this is even allowed in the campaign, your church may not approve of such activities. They may ask, 'Why you didn't use the divine power to help members of your own faith'. It depends how much politics plays a role in the game.

That Warlock List is all over the place, but is better defined than it's original RoCo. I use it for divinely inspired/granted powers from Deities.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 12:04:48 PM »
Why do so called gods even care about the goings on in our world?  Oh yeah, they dont. 

In a fantasy setting they do.  To pull this off, the gods must be anthropomorphized.  Then these supreme beings have reasons to want to dominant earth or where ever.  Having spheres of influence creates inheirent strengths and weaknesses for the gods to use and suffer in their battles against each other.

Real gods that could grant power to their followers, such as spells, would probably be unconcerned with the political opinion of the ignorant masses.  If a faithful priest cast lifegiving, then the faithful priest thought it important enough.  Sure, jealousy might rear its head, but trust me when I say that Sunday the priest will preach against the sin of jealousy, essentially telling the ignorant masses to mind and keep their place.

Or the god is actively aware of al spells cast in his name and wont allow them to work if cast in a manner he disaproves of.  This would result in a cloistered priesthood that would follow the tennats of its faith without exception.  Again, the politics of the ignorant masses would mean nothing to it, unless the tennats ofthe faith dictated otherwise.

Some faiths may have a semi kind heart and set aside a day or week were they use thier granted powers to perform miracles for the masses.  It would be a time for mass conversion too.

Does the god direct his spell using priesthood, or leave them autominous?  Autominy seems unlikely since he does give power to the priest and in someway must know his location.  Maybe a priest should HAVE to pray on consecrated ground to get his pp back? 

I assumed all channelers would be effectively blessed by their god and the god very much aware of the mini avatars he has spread across the world/universe.  At any time he can pull his power from the mini avatar or send power to the mini avatar.  Such an action may burn out the mini avatar like a candle wick, but then those faithful follow and serve HIM, not the other way around.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline providence13

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2011, 03:27:41 PM »
I suppose it's whatever works for your game. I like the idea that some of the message is open to interpretation. This would mean divinity might be more distant to most individuals and closer to a few others.
Not everyone is 'Blessed by a war god', for instance. :)

IMHO, having the drama of inter-religion politics can be an interesting plot device.

'You think you're doing the right thing and you are granted PP, but this other guy over there says something a little different from your fundamentals and he seems to be casting spells too. And you worship the same Power....'

Also, I've adopted the old method of gradually getting to know your god better, based on Ranks in the List.
1 to 5 granted through knowledge and faith
6 to 10 granted by supernatural servants and minions
11 to 15 granted by granted by demi-power
16 to 20 granted by lesser power
25 to 50 granted by greater deity

Not all religions follow this and sometimes I break my own rules, but this is a guideline.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 03:36:22 PM »
On a related note, the above scale allows someone who isn't extremely devout to still be granted PP for spells.
If a Thief wants to pick a Rank or 2 in Concussion's Way's, I don't make them observe every single tenet of the faith, as long as there are no gross departures to their new Vow.

But if the same Thief tries to advance beyond the lowest of spells, they will have to spend DP on skills that develop a relationship with that Power; History, Lores, Admin, etc.

 
"The Lore spell assaults your senses- Roll on the spontaneous human combustion table; twice!"

Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »
I kind of like the progression guide based on Ranks.  That allows the smallfolk to "pay their respects" and perhaps get a little in return--possibly from multiple deities--but serious power comes only with greater commitment (or at least greater ability to negotiate).

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2011, 05:31:35 PM »
How about assigning a diety to specific spell list?  High level spells are only available through the diety who controls the list, though lower level spells may be available from other dieties.

This would work real well in a game with NO essence users.  The Mentalism and Essence list would be assigned to various gawds.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Mordenkainen

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 02:14:37 AM »
The Channeling Companion is a good book and the specialty priests are well done.

That said, the language and flavour tends heavily to monotheism, or frankly Christianity, which doesn't suit me so much. It's full of saints, grace, temptation and redemption, ministers and missionaries etc etc. All of these evoke Christianity rather than the more sword and sorcery world I'm looking for.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 03:08:18 PM »
The think the thing I miss most in Channeling Companion is ways to dealing with avatars. The rules about divine status and intervention is perhaps not flawed, but they do seem rather boring with them only providing more and more bonuses. I like settings when avatars of the gods can appear, but when there are balancing factors that makes it a real risk for the god to appear as avatar. Different ways the god can aid the player without it disrupting the flow of the game would be nice.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 11:12:52 PM »
The Channeling Companion is a good book and the specialty priests are well done.

That said, the language and flavour tends heavily to monotheism, or frankly Christianity, which doesn't suit me so much. It's full of saints, grace, temptation and redemption, ministers and missionaries etc etc. All of these evoke Christianity rather than the more sword and sorcery world I'm looking for.

Saying the flavor favors monotheism is fairly contradictory considering the book is to be used to create a pantheon.  Your issue with the terms is most likely because it is writted with a Western audience with a judeo-xian-muslim frame of reference in mind.  The 'Old Ways' also had concepts fairly equivalent to saints, grace, temptation, redemption, minsters and missionaries (perhaps to a lesser extent) but your are reading from your own experiences.  It is interpretation not in the terms used.  Eisegesis - one of my favorite words.  In other words the book probably wouldn't make much sense if it used 'arhat' instead of 'saint'.  But this is a very touchy subject - discussing modern religions - and is probably left alone.

But back to the original post, the beauty of the book lies in the versatility.  You could very well create a deity with powers over the sea an horses/animals.  You don't have to use the spheres only to choose your list.  Many deities had a wide range of spheres of influence, it depends on how specialized you want it to be.  For example Apollow was the god of the sun & poetry while Ra was mainly the god of the sun.  Which way do you want to go?  There are many lists to choose from.  If you want to go another route look at HARP's College of Magic.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Mordenkainen

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 08:47:27 AM »

Saying the flavor favors monotheism is fairly contradictory considering the book is to be used to create a pantheon.  Your issue with the terms is most likely because it is writted with a Western audience with a judeo-xian-muslim frame of reference in mind.  The 'Old Ways' also had concepts fairly equivalent to saints, grace, temptation, redemption, minsters and missionaries (perhaps to a lesser extent) but your are reading from your own experiences.  It is interpretation not in the terms used.  Eisegesis - one of my favorite words.  In other words the book probably wouldn't make much sense if it used 'arhat' instead of 'saint'.  But this is a very touchy subject - discussing modern religions - and is probably left alone.

Exactly - I wish modern (monotheistic) religions to be left alone when it comes to my FRPG. But the ChanCo is full of the above-mentioned terms which have almost exclusively Christian frames of reference, and bring images primarily of Christianity to mind, rather than polytheism or henotheism. Compare Runequest with its cults for an approach which doesn't fall into this trap.

I tend to think of the Greek and Norse pantheons, as well as the Egyptian, as closer to the religions in my game. (At least these kind of pantheons as filtered through the pulps, with a healthy dose of Lovecraft thrown in). And no, "faith", sainthood and missionaries, not to mention temptation and redemption, have little place in these religions. So I'm simply saying that I prefer something written by a new age hippie like Greg Stafford who has paganism in mind rather than something written by someone whose primary frame of reference seems to be Christianity.

But I don't mean to be too strident or critical of the actual book. In the end it's a flavour issue, and I prefer it a little more spicy.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 03:29:02 AM »
I also think that Channeling Companion is one of the best Companion books. One improvement I'd like to see in a revised version is to have a set of Templates not only for the (Pure) Priest profession but also for the Semi Channeling user. The Templates offer a multitude of different types of Priests to be played, and, in a similar fashion, I'd like to have a multitude of Semi Channeling user types. Of course I am aware that this is quite a difficult task...

Offline markc

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 09:02:16 AM »
I also think that Channeling Companion is one of the best Companion books. One improvement I'd like to see in a revised version is to have a set of Templates not only for the (Pure) Priest profession but also for the Semi Channeling user. The Templates offer a multitude of different types of Priests to be played, and, in a similar fashion, I'd like to have a multitude of Semi Channeling user types. Of course I am aware that this is quite a difficult task...


 I agree with the above. And also think of the multitude of spell lists that can be involved as well with combining deity types.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2011, 10:28:40 PM »
I don't mind quibble or criticisms at all. As a matter of fact, while I was happy with the positive feedback the book received/receives, I was hoping to see some feedback about what people thought didn't work or was omitted.  There were a good many things we wanted to add, but we were given a finite amount of pages to work with unfortunately.  We wanted to bump up to about a 50% larger book, but were told no.

So, to reply to some things...

Quote
It should at least have been considered that one might take the position that gods do not have sources of power, they are sources of power. The "gods draw power from their worshipers" trope has frankly been overused, in gaming especially, to the point it has become cliched.

There a few areas that we didn't cover specifically because they were so simple.  Meaning if the god is the source of power there is no need to describe a process or system for how the power is gathered.  While this would have been a fairly brief bit to include, the above mentioned space restraints were the issue.  We pushed the content as far as they could get away with.  I was almost tempted to ask for less artwork so we could include more.


Quote
The suggested information for defining religions in chapter 4 is focused on trivia. It isn't useless, but it is incomplete.

The dilemma we had with much of the book was where to balance general guidelines with specifics.  Below someone mentioned not liking the terminology we used (Saints, etc) because they feel it implies a biased to one form of faith.  So what to do?  It was the equivalent of using a masculine default.  Anyhow... we decided to remain fairly generic since this was Rolemaster and, at the time, there was no true official setting and because everyone's Rolemaster is a little different than the next group or GM's.


Quote
The attempt to handle grace and corruption was about as good as one could hope for, but I think any capable GM is going to be better off winging it.
This system was really intended for those who couldn't or didn't want to have to create their own system, but we felt it was important to include so that Channeling users have the potential for accountability in their behavior if the GM so chooses.  Some GM's also prefer to have an 'official' method so they can tell their players "That's the rule!"  Of course, experienced GM's just tell their players to put a sock in it. :)


Quote
The Warlock lists has some possible balance issues. One that leaps out is on Transformations, the 1st level spell offers +5 DB. You can also get +10 DB, at 15th level. This seems a huge leap in level given the difference in the bonus.

This is on par with other similar spells in power level.  Consider many lists give a +5 DB spell at 3rd level, but against all attacks made against the caster.  The Warlock's 1st level spell is only applicable to attacks the caster is aware of, which is a serious factor in effectiveness.  Also consider that the "Shield" spells, often at 3rd level for even Semi's, are five times more powerful than the Warlock's.

That said, the Warlock was not one the professions I wrote (co-author did that one) so I can't comment a whole lot on it.  I suspect much of it was pulled from the RM2 version of the profession but with some adjustment for power level (a lot of RM2 stuff needs toning down for RMSS).


Quote
My final comments are on the "spheres of influence" concept. Spheres of influence are interpretations of gods; their definition is in specific myths.

I actually disagree that a "sphere of influence" implies a deity is involved.  There is no reason a Ranger cannot be drawing it's power from the actual forest (or whatever) itself.  This is actually discussed in the book, stating that in such a situation the player character may have more freedom in behavior, but is far less likely to receive any 'sentient' divine help.


I suppose it's whatever works for your game. I like the idea that some of the message is open to interpretation.

This was the intention with some things in the book.  RM users tend to be more advanced gamers and, therefore, tend to have more unique ways in which Channeling works in their own little world.

...the language and flavour tends heavily to monotheism, or frankly Christianity, which doesn't suit me so much. It's full of saints, grace, temptation and redemption, ministers and missionaries etc etc. All of these evoke Christianity rather than the more sword and sorcery world I'm looking for.

A few comments (not discounting your opinion, just explaining where we were coming from)...
1. We had to use something and making up new names for everything, or stealing them from other game systems, seemed silly.
2. The primary users of RM, and largest concentration of RM fans are North America and the UK, thus weighted in the favor of Christianity.
3. My Co-Author is Morman. I'm a godless heathen... ok, maybe not that drastic, but (no offense to anyone) I do not have a high opinion of organized religion.
4. There was some influence from "The Primal Order" table top game (one of the first products of a fledgling WotC).
5. We put in a section that give basic definitions of the various 'titles' were so that you could create your own.

The think the thing I miss most in Channeling Companion is ways to dealing with avatars.

Oh trust me, we wanted to go here, but this is one of the things nixed by space restraints.


Quote
The rules about divine status and intervention is perhaps not flawed, but they do seem rather boring with them only providing more and more bonuses.
The main intention here was to give Channeling users a benefit for the potential restrictions they face due to being Channeling users.  This is another piece that was really included for GM's that didn't want to (or couldn't) create their own system for rewarding/punishing behavior.

I also think that Channeling Companion is one of the best Companion books. One improvement I'd like to see in a revised version is to have a set of Templates not only for the (Pure) Priest profession but also for the Semi Channeling user. The Templates offer a multitude of different types of Priests to be played, and, in a similar fashion, I'd like to have a multitude of Semi Channeling user types. Of course I am aware that this is quite a difficult task...

This was what the "Priest" system was originally proposed as to ICE at the time (1997-1998).  We wanted to create a system that worked with all the possible templates (Pure, Hybrid, Semi and Arms).  ICE tried to get us to make one single pure caster template and set of six base lists for a "Priest" profession.  We pushed back saying that would defeat the entire purpose of the concept (for the Priest).  The first reason we came up with the Priest system was because the Cleric was too generic to portray a vast variety of possible gods.  Even then the editors at the time (this was before Tim was part of ICE) tried to get us to go with a simple new sole profession and we simply refused to do it.  So, they settled on having the Pure Priest template, a bunch of list you can choose from to build it with, and put the other three templates (Hybrid, Semi, Arms) in the back of the book as 'optional'.

Really, the idea was for there to be no template at all.  Instead you'd take an existing profession template that most closely matched your concept and swap out base lists from similar caster types (Pure, Hybrid, Semi).  You would also modify profession bonuses, everyman/occupational/restricted skills.  We saw no reason to create more templates as there were plenty already to simulate anything you wanted to do fairly well already.  For example, if you wanted to create an Anti-Paladin there's no reason not to use the existing Paladin template and just modify the spell lists.  When you're talking about spell casters it's largely the spell lists that differentiate them in the end.

Thanks all for the positive comments, but I have to say it's finally nice (in a way) to see some well spoken feedback about the parts people think could be better.  Heh, especially when it backs up what we wanted to do in the first place but weren't allowed to. ;)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 10:34:48 PM by Cory Magel »
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Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2011, 11:55:11 PM »
FWIW, I thought the Priest template concept was exceptionally well done.  Personally, I don't like restricting Base lists to the "official" Lists anyways--for any Realm--so it matches how I prefer to run things anyway.  At the same time, it provided a great framework for guiding character creation.  Why wouldn't a Cleric grab every useful List he could?  Well, maybe it just doesn't match the deities from which he draws his power...

Offline markc

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2011, 09:27:27 AM »
 I personally love the CC and it has had a big impact on my game. It has made a lot of things easier and a few harder, ie custom Paladins for each religion. But all in all a 9/10, and I hardly ever give anything above a 9.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2011, 09:29:55 AM »
Thanks for the history and background info.
  So how does this work? You submitted extra material and were paid for it. So even though it wasn't used, you can't make it available to others because 'the company that paid you' now owns the material?
Gotcha.

The avatar business does seem interesting..

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Offline markc

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Re: Channeling Companion Issues
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2011, 10:16:50 AM »
Thanks for the history and background info.
  So how does this work? You submitted extra material and were paid for it. So even though it wasn't used, you can't make it available to others because 'the company that paid you' now owns the material?
Gotcha.


 Who is this addressed comment to?
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.