Author Topic: Encounter Levels??  (Read 11152 times)

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Encounter Levels??
« on: October 16, 2009, 03:48:04 PM »
One of the things that I have often heard from folks, especially those who are new to GMing RM (any version, or even HARP), is that it is often difficult to know how to gauge an encounter.

And regretfully, this is true, very true.

The problem lies within several factors....

1) There is no steady increase in OB each level, or in DB. Characters can develop fewer or more ranks depending upon their whims.

2) DB isn't the only defensive measure, there is also AT. While the two work great together, they also make it more difficult since you have multiple defensive factors to consider.

3) Weapons are also a factor. Since each weapon has its own table, and the weapon itself is a factor in how much damage cane be done, that increase the complexity.

4) Number of combatants is also a factor. More foes of a lower level can be just as devastating or more so than less foes of a higher level.

5) Open-ended rolls are also a factor, they can be a real gamer-changer, they can let a 1st level farmer take out the 20th level dragon with a single shot. This really throws a wrench into things..

Personally, I cannot figure out any easy way to determine a solution

Below, I have attached an image of a table that divides combat skills into 3 categories; primary, secondary, and tertiary. Primary is essentially Fighters and Rogue (and Martial Arts for Warrior Monks), Secondary is likely Theives, and most semis, and tertiary is for the pure and hybrids.

I gave stat bonuses based on the likelyhood of having a 90 (+10) the requisite stats (i.e. +10 for Pri, +5 for Sec, and +0 for Ter).

Any suggestions or ideas would be welcome!!


Offline Marc R

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 04:04:10 PM »
Not sure if it can be done. . .the more combat heavy a game is, the more often people die, and a series of bad/good rolls can cause a TPK quickly.

(In my current HARP game, I had a player roll four 01s in a row. . ..)

Constant hassling combats, like are common in many systems, will just kill the party off on probabilities. . . . it's not like D&D where it's just hit point erosion. . . grab squirril, squrrill bites you and crazily kills you. . .shouldn't have let it get to your jugular.

The difference in "Encounter danger level" between a fight avoided, an enemy attacked from ambush, a stand up fight, and being ambushed by the enemy. . .it's so great that it's hard to quantify.
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 04:37:42 PM »
I think you forgot the real number one...what spells the sides are using mean lots to how the battle develop.
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Offline markc

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »
 Also to go along with the above comments, magic in general. ie healing herbs, crits, healing spells, monster outlook. etc all play into the equation.

Good luck on a tough problem.
 MDC
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 05:54:45 PM »
Not sure if it can be done. . .the more combat heavy a game is, the more often people die, and a series of bad/good rolls can cause a TPK quickly.

Well, you cannot take in account things like that, but it seems quite obvious that increasing the number of combat in a game will increase its lethality...

5) Open-ended rolls are also a factor, they can be a real gamer-changer, they can let a 1st level farmer take out the 20th level dragon with a single shot. This really throws a wrench into things..

Open-ended have the same chance to happen in both sides, so imho there's no need to take them into account. Just put disclaimer to warn that open ended rolls or lucky crit can completely change the outcome of a battle.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline David Johansen

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 06:26:52 PM »
You know, I've always balanced encounters by the relative hits and OBs.  And I'm not particularly fussy.  I've seen a group of first level RMSS PCs decimate their own number in chaos warriors on bipedal lizard mounts.  Mind you, the fight took place on a crude log bridge over a chasm and the fall did lots of the dirty work.

Lately though I've been wanting to experiment with dungeon crawls.  Something that's generally not up my alley and I'd argue Rolemaster does poorly.  Crippled people go home.  The kind of fight after fight attrition in the dungeon crawl just isn't easy for anyone under maybe tenth level.

But I've always thought the levels assigned to monsters were pretty high relative to their stats and I want to try doing some level balanced dungeons using those values because room after room of OB 35 orcs will likely add up but be sustainable.

All highly theoretical at the moment mind you.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 06:48:52 PM »
Do the players know each other and have they learned to work well together? Is the opposition to be played cleverly or stupidly? Bravely or cowardly? Acting together or as individuals? These factors are as important as what is on the stat sheets.

One thing to remember is that it is much less of a problem to set the difficulty too low than in some other games. In some games, an underpowered opposition is not just an "easy win", it is simply not a threat. Anyone who bear arms is a credible threat in Rolemaster. Even an overly powerful foe is defeatable, too, although putting one in accidentally is still something of a problem.

If you aren't sure, leave yourself an out: The trolls are slavers and can decide to take PCs alive. The evil cultists want to have live sacrifices. The bandits turn out to be cowardly and flee after a couple of them go down, even though they are clearly winning.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 06:58:39 PM »
Do the players know each other and have they learned to work well together? Is the opposition to be played cleverly or stupidly? Bravely or cowardly? Acting together or as individuals? These factors are as important as what is on the stat sheets.

This was a problem with a former GM. He was so good at using whatever abilities our foes have that in order for it to be a challenging, but winnable fight, we (the PCs) needed to be several levels higher.

Quote
If you aren't sure, leave yourself an out: The trolls are slavers and can decide to take PCs alive. The evil cultists want to have live sacrifices. The bandits turn out to be cowardly and flee after a couple of them go down, even though they are clearly winning.

This is why I like RPGs the ability to be flexible.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline markc

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 07:00:22 PM »
 Yes a bunch of Orc's in a tunnel with a Mage throwing fireballs or Ice balls is very deadly. Then again it can work against the party also.

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Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2009, 03:18:51 AM »
Rasyr, what about level bonuses? These affect the total bonus quite much, especially at higher levels.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 06:06:44 AM »
Characters could be linked to combat roles (similar to those in d&d) by the skills they developed, rather than by their profession. That would make much easier to give directions for building encounters, without constraining players in pre-set niches (as roles would be descriptive rather than prescriptive).
A quick reference table could help DM to find out what roles their PCs cover, and some guidelines could be given to guide DM modelling their encounters around the PC party composition (rather than imposing a fixed party model made by role X+ role Y + role Z).
Obviously you can't get 100% accurate, but it would be a nice improvement imho.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2009, 06:33:45 AM »
Rasyr, what about level bonuses? These affect the total bonus quite much, especially at higher levels.

I am sure that there are a number of factors involved that I missed. I only listed those off the top of my head.


Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2009, 08:50:28 AM »
A number of elements to consider in analyzing a PC combat effectivness in RM (imho):

- Health: probably the simplest attribute to ananlyze, the PC's sheer number of HPs.
- Damage Mitigation: the ability to reduce damage and crit taken. Made by AT + Size + Special abilities (like # or @)
- Damage Output: damage done by character's attack. Crits make this difficult to calculate, as even an attack dealing low damage can incapacitate a foe.
- Critical Reach: probably part of the Damage Output. Simply put, how easy is for a character to achieve a crit on a hit.
- Martial Ability: sum of Offensive and Defensive capabilities (OB+DB).
- Control: the ability of impairing enemies, mainly achieved by spellcasting (F type spells and some E spells)
- Buff: increasing own and/or allies capabilities (adrenal skills, blessing, spells,...)
- Healing: the ability of healing damage
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2009, 03:50:04 PM »
- Escape: the ability to get away when things turn against you. If the PCs have no movement magic, no mounts, and are slower than the opposition, they're probably going to have to win the combat or surrender to survive.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 05:40:44 AM »
- Escape: the ability to get away when things turn against you. If the PCs have no movement magic, no mounts, and are slower than the opposition, they're probably going to have to win the combat or surrender to survive.

This is more a situational factor than character factor imho, but mobility certainly affect the combat to a large degree. I would put special movement abilities, like teleport or flight, under the "control" area.

Another factor that has an impact on combat is Level, together with RR bonuses... we could call it "Status Resistance" or something like that.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 10:23:06 AM »
All of this assumes all adventures will be purely combat, resolved by combat.
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Offline markc

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 01:29:56 PM »
 I dont know I think that combat and non-combat encounters have a specific level have danger or opposition. That could be creatures to attack, opponents skills to overcome, physical challenges or something I have forgot.
 
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 02:51:03 AM »
All of this assumes all adventures will be purely combat, resolved by combat.

No, it's just an attempt to measure characters' effectivness in combat. This is far from assuming that all adventures will be "purely combat", and has nothing to do with resolving adventures.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 07:07:24 AM »
Resolving encounters, in context, I presume for stringing a series of encounters together to make an adventure.

An encounter, even a hostile one, may not resolve in combat. . . .hard enough to judge combat results (almost impossible perhaps) due to the huge swing weight RM gives characters.

Toss in the broader range of ways to resolve encounters beyond combat and things like intelligence and perception become large factors.

Like, sneak by, con your way by, befriend the encounter, cast fly and avoid the encounter, cast invisibility and avoid the encounter.

I find it far harder to "write to a level" for RM than for say D&D. . .simply because there's so much variability, fairly dangerous odds in play, and a degree of randomness where generally 1/10 critical results put you down.

One of the reasons I like RM is that it discourages combat in favor of roleplay. . .simply because the odds catch up on you so fast. . . .odds are that a string of 10 encounters "evenly balanced" = dead party in RM. (In a party of 5 PCs, odds are you'll have at least 2 members "down" of which one is killed in every "fair" fight.)

YMMV but for me, RM is a system where if you don't intend to talk, you should show up with overwhelming odds, when they don't expect it, and they're not ready to fight, Never give them a chance to get ready, stab them with their backs turned, while they're sleeping, and stand up fighting is reserved for emergencies (usually resulting from having to defend yourself from an attack).

RM is realistic enough that real-world logic applies here. Take a look at people who deal with violence in our world, namely Police and Soldiers. . . .how little do THEY care about a "fair fight"? That's because fair means you might get dead, and you don't want to get dead. With a system where death can just pop out of any attack at all, you can't really afford to deal with issues like "fair" often, or you end up rolling up a new character.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 07:12:48 AM by LordMiller »
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Encounter Levels??
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 07:23:59 AM »
I agree, but you cannot deny that combat is part of the game.
And if a GM (or a player) ask you "how can I gauge what the chances of survival of a party of PCs against these foes are?" I don't think that "Meh, you shouldn't resolve everything with combat" would be a great answer.
Having some guidelines to help GM and players gauging the difficulty of an encounter is akin to having guidelines to gauge the difficulty of a maneuver. And if having the Routine to Absurd scale doesn't make you think that adventures should be just a sequence of maneuvers, I can't understand why having a similar scale for combats should make you think otherwise...

I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.