Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: Kurgath on August 04, 2009, 03:54:47 PM
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So you would think after 10+ years of GMing Shadow World I would have a good grasp on things....
......well today I realised I might have been ruling Navigators all wrong.
I realised while reading the Shadowstone Chronicles through again that all the Jumps seemed to be from obelisk to obelisk - but I had always assumed that you could kind of Jump to pretty much anywhere.
So that caused me to check out the Navigator risks more thoroughly and now I see why obelisk to obelisk is the most likely option, they are basically just using teleports albeit with some additional ability to make them safe - I had always just assumed that they were pretty much 'risk free' and 'extremely long ranged'.
Presumably though most experienced Navigators would have a fair few other locations well known also. I can imagine trainee Navigators travelling around to build-up their portfolio of safe locations. But what happens when you place your hand on an obelisk and confidently say "i require a Navigator" and the one who arrives can't provide what you are looking for? Does he blush, excuse himself, leave and send a colleague back???
And then the next item - range.
Since the lists restrict their 'service' Jumps to 10 miles/level then although this is as good as a magician it isn't exactly the "extremely long range" that I had assumed.
Take an example from Shadowstone - Sulfean Jumps Kalen & co from Nomikos to Rapata. This is about 1000 miles.....Sulfean would need to be 100th level to do this! But according to SWMA4 he is 35th, so does that mean he would have had to take them in 3 Jumps? Or more likely a fair few more than that considering he would have to zig-zag his way up there going from safe spot to safe spot???? (e.g. obelisk to obelisk)
I know I am taking what is written quite literally but I just wanted to share my observatons because I was a bit shocked and surprised today!
Comments???
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I always assumed a jump was a culmination of multiple spells off of the Mass Transport, Path Mastery and Flow Mastery spell lists. The compass allowed the wearer to better manipulate the flows and require massive amounts of training.
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Usually when you ask for a navigator, the one that comes and negotiates wit you is not the same that comes to make the transport.
Also the one that makes the transport could have the right spell cast (at the right level to make only 1 jump) in a rune paper or stored in the compass, all of this done by a Master Navigator.
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Good ideas fac.
So the first person they could meet would be the travel planner, who then decides whether they need to send a taxi or a corporate jet! ::)
I'm keen to iron-out a concensus on another of my issues - do you rule that Jumps are typically only from obelisk to obelisk or do you allow it to be more flexible?
e.g. 1: Obelisk to some other location
e.g. 2: Personal summoning stone to an obelisk
Plus variations on that theme.....
Personally I'm starting to veer towards Obelisk to Obelisk, or very major landmarks, or my example 2 above. Otherwise people could say "drop me off as close to Gryphon College as you can please - and don't deny you know where that is because I know you have taken people there before!"
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In my game obelisks are following the flows and help to fix the flows as if they were ley lines. I think that jumping from everywhere to an obelisk is 100% safe, so Navigators always prefer to jumb between obelisks because is risk free, sometimes they have to do the jum to a wild area where there are no obelisks (e.g. Khum Khaan), it's not a problem but it's not their favourite job.
The same difference between landing in Charles de Gaulle or in a small island in the Caribbean. ;D
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Although I read the Shadow Stone Chronicles, I don't use them as Canon material. Unfortunately for me, and probably many others, I started running in SW 15+ years ago on limited material. So, when Navigators & Loremasters became involved....it was very much a whimsical affair. I didn't know much about the different guilds etc. So I just made it stinkin expensive and the Navigators kinda snotty....players are cheap, so they never bothered after that.....particularly when we had some characters that "knew everything "...do you know how to we get to ________?" Says Dirhn the mage to Collin the Ranger..."Of course I do! I've been a guide in Jaiman for years, and to better company than you!" (meanwhile a frantic set of Region Lore & geography rolls are beig made with all the players laughiing)
Good times
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There is also items that work as easy-to-transport obelisks, like special Coins and mini-obelisks.
I think i had read something about that in SwStone Chrn. and in the Great Campaign (something in Tanara i believe).
Anyway normally you don't jump with a navigator, he travels with you. He helps the travel to be faster and more secure, but usually only Jump to defend the passengers, and then continue his path. So normally they don't need to do big jumps. OTOH i will allow the navigator to increase their range if i need to.
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This brings up an interesting question. How do you all (or do you) encourage PC's to use Navigators? Sure there's always the possibility of barriers in which case you would probably need one but those would be rare cases. Does the Navigator speed up travel somehow? Otherwise once you have some experienced characters there would be little reason to ever hire a Navigator.
I've found that PC's rarely would ever hire a Navigator, *unless* it's for a Jump. However the spirit of SW is that places are isolated and travel is dangerous so Navigators just as guides should be more common.
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We asume that is pretty hard to advance without a guide once you are outside major roads. At least we asume that the group will advance less miles per day without a guide. Also navigators increase speed more than a normal guide, putting wind to the sails.
Our groups doesn't ask for Navigators normally because it's too expensive, and they want to fight whatever menace they encounter. But sometimes, when they know they are followed by someone more dangerous that them, they use the Navigators as a Bodyguard safe more than a guide.
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I always assumed that Navigators were the only ones with access to the spell lists. Kinda like a guild monopoly.
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Me too. Its like owning IP. The spell list is where the money making is...
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Like everything else relating to spells. You need a teacher of some sort, be that a book or a real person.
I would expect Guilds like Navigators to guard their occupational secrets fairly well.
Otoh it would be interesting if a mage managed to learn a list and started teaching it to the public. ;D
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Otoh it would be interesting if a mage managed to learn a list and started teaching it to the public. ;D
He'd probably suffer an "unfortunate accident" due to "use of inadequately understood dangerous spells" that "should only be used by qualified people."
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Such spells often conjure knives in the dark
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Just imagine it...
10 secret students who in their turn enroll 10 secret students of their own and so on.
Anarchy will follow... *evil laughter*
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Just imagine it...
10 secret students who in their turn enroll 10 secret students of their own and so on.
Anarchy will follow... *evil laughter*
Thus inventing the Kulthean version of Amway.
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Loremaster had similar spells. Anyway i believe the compass is the distintictive tool to be able to do what they do.
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For us, a Compass is a prereq for teleporting close to, or through, an essence flow. This includes the small flows that are barely noticable unless you are sensitive to magic.
So no compass - no decent range teleport. The compasses are the way they keep their monopoly on teleporting.
We have also allowed navigators to jump to any point they have visited.
IIRC, the material clearly states, as someone mentioned above, that the most common way of using a navigator is to have them travel with you. We found that prices are a bit too high for that to seem reasonable (1 gold/mile?), and we also do not commonly have essence flows that blocks a popular way of travel.
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Is there a map anywhere showing the major flows and/or Foci?
Maybe some map showing the Navigator Obelisks? (How many are they? How far appart can they be found?)
And besides a lv 20 navigator can safely teleport 20 people 200 miles (lv40 -> 400 miles with a lot of people) . A few of those jumps and you're there...
So, I guess if you need a serious jump they can arrange it although it'll likely cost you an arm and a leg.
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There's a map in Jaiman showing Essaence flows there, and another showing obelisk locations. I don't recall seeing anything similar for Emer.
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My new Jaiman map has all the Navigator Obelisks on it (which combines all the existing maps), as well as a redrawn Essaence flow map. When I do the Emer map it will definitely include all the obelisks - not sure about the Flows. They can shift over time, especially the minor ones.
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I vaguely remember Terry saying somewhere that he was withdrawing the map of the Jaiman Essaence flows from circulation.
I can't remember if it was because he didn't want players to see it or if it was because he didn't like the map anymore.
When I bought the Jaiman pdf (for convenience) the Essaence flow map isn't in it, but it was in my original printed version dating back to something like 1995
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I talked with Terry about it a couple months ago as I was drawing the map. It was because how the flows can shift over time and so he didn't think a flow map was useful.
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I had forgotten about those. I mostly use the pdfs...
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Hi, All,
There was a map of the flows in a small addendum to the First Edition Master Atlas (the boxed set.) I'm reasonably sure that it also showed weather patterns, techtonic plate boundaries, etc, etc. Along with a glossary of Shadow World terms. (I'll have a look and see if I can find my copy- although, lord knows where it actually is.) Don't remember it showing Navigator Obelisks, though.
Be useful if the maps were available.
All the Best,
Kevin.
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I guess you could make a map of the shifting flows so GM's and players get an idea of how they can shift and not just that they shift here and here like a tidal shift.
MDC
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There were also flows shown in the Jamain book. I remember distinctly that therie was this solid circle flow around the forge in the big central lake.
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Note that the flows shown in the Jaiman book for Jaiman are completely different then the Jaiman flows shown in the atlas addendum flow map
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Just imagine it...
10 secret students who in their turn enroll 10 secret students of their own and so on.
Anarchy will follow... *evil laughter*
"Three can keep a secret if two are dead."
This lasts until one of the first generation of students is observed using navigator-like spells by a navigator. Then eleven would-be navigators have mysterious accidents and it never reaches the third generation of 100 students.
Free hint to anyone who learns navigator spell lists without being a navigator: don't tell a soul.
Free hint to anyone who comes into possession of a compass: Summon a navigator and sell it to them.
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I'll have to dig up the Atlas flows, but yes I did regret trying to publish set ones. Think of them more like winds on our earth. The jet stream is always there, but it moves up and down across the continent. The gulf stream shifts. Major Flows never completely vanish but they may shift, and ebb and flow, while minor ones fluctuate much more, partly based on the changes in the major ones. And with the Northern Eye gone, there would be radical changes. And the navigators would play on this.
I am writing about this now because there is a major flow following the Spine of Emer, which sometimes blocks the Gap of Uj and the Cloud Pass. Think of how that can affect trade.
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Here's an idea: the Flows shift in a regular pattern, but the pattern is so long (say 500 years) that the only ones who know and have documented this are the elves (and other immortals). Which is why there are so many elven navigators.
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Of course, with the northern eye gone, this would have changed everything so everyone is scrambling to figure out the new pattern.
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Here's an idea: the Flows shift in a regular pattern, but the pattern is so long (say 500 years) that the only ones who know and have documented this are the elves (and other immortals). Which is why there are so many elven navigators.
And every time Sa’kain visits Kulthea, the patterns change (until the next visit, when they change again).
Remember, Sa’kain is imbued with powerful Essænce and almost every visit of is a harbinger of terrible flow-storms and other magical disruptions all across Kulthea.
DonMoody
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I would put Sa'kain as a temporary alteration to the flows, not permanent. When it is near the flows go wacky, but after it goes they return back to their normal pattern. How long does the comet's path take again? Thousand's, tens of thousand's of years, right?
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1500 years
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1500 years
Hmmm... why did I think it was longer? Still, only the elves would be able to keep active records of the event.