Author Topic: Strangulation  (Read 4717 times)

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Offline Sazen

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Strangulation
« on: December 11, 2009, 07:44:53 AM »
Going over my character (an Assassin) and then the Core Rules, Martial Law, Codex and all the Bazars i could not find a singlle referance to how my character could garrot sombody....

I would normaly deal with this as a Story manouver (no roll just discriptive fluff) but as one of party members in becoming annoying (moral) i relise if i use this on a PC they will demand a save or action...

One idea was increasing hit die round per round till unciousness and death, my only concern is that it seems that the defender can happily attack, cast spells use items while this is going on which doesn't fit the cinematic or realistic view of choaking.

Any comments or ideas would be helpful thankyou

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 08:11:01 AM »
Perhaps use the rules for drowning, with a few tweaks?
Seems like the grapple attack table could be in the mix somewhere too...


I will have to look through my books to give you a better answer, but they are put away at the present time.
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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 10:33:07 AM »
If someone has a decent lungful of air when the choking starts, it could take several rounds.  Chances are, however, that the person won't have that full breath.  I'd consider basing it off the character's CO score/10 as the number of rounds until passing out occurs.  It's not truly a damage-dealing type of effect, as once they wake up (if the choking stops before death occurs), they will likely have a headache, but usually no significant damage, unless a wire or fine cord was used.

If using a cord, I like the idea of a grapple attack.  If using an arm or a large cloth, I would consider the MA sweeps table.  Modify the attack roll generously in favor of the attacker (i.e. flank and rear bonuses), and use any even mildly connected combat skill to give a decent OB, despite the table being used.

Also, if an attack succeeds, I would treat the defender as being stunned for that first round, out of sheer surprise, regardless of the attack result.  That should greatly limit his retaliation options for that initial round. 

Also, once the garrote is in place, I would allow the attacker a bonus to ambush or crit modification each round, as well as a significant decrease to the defender's OB for any attempt to break free.  I would allow the attacker to continue to make attack rolls each round, with 0 effective DB for the defender (unless wearing a gorget) as the garrote is already in place.  Any crit result that generates a stun or an incapacitating result would speed the end.

If using the attack tables, it may be that the damage accumulation from successive rounds of attacks will end the matter long before the CO/10 rounds count is reached.  In that case, I would have blackout occur when hits was reached, and death when CO/10 + 5 rounds was reached.  If you don't plan to kill, I would treat the damage from this attack as soft damage, all but 10% recovered within an hour of waking up.
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Offline ZuS

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 05:07:31 PM »
Ambush on Grapple Critical Table. A garrotte is a small weapon, which caps at 80 and has -10 modifier, as all small weapons. If you don't have Garrotte skill, can use related weapon modifiers present in game. Aiming for the neck is -50, you get positional and surprise which in most cases is +55.

Result of 120+ on the Critical Table is not instant kill, but is within a minute. Target is unconscious in 2 rounds and is very silent during this time. Unless the target is an expert fighter, there is no chance of getting out. You can choose to give a heavily modified Martial Art/Strength Vs your Garrotte skill Maneuver.

Anything less than a killing/passing out result is not silent. A significant crippling result that is not a killing/pass out result means that you got him in the garrotte, but he is far from done fighting. Initiate hand-to-hand with your positional bonus intact and your garrotte increased to medium weapon (since it's around his/hers neck). Neither of you can parry, quickness DB applies to both. You have a pretty wide veriety of stuff at your disposal, since you can both kick/stomp, grapple or brawl (running him into walls, ground, furniture etc).

If he is quick (DB), tough (Stamina resistance to keep you from stunning him) and a good fighter (hand-to-hand or able to pull a weapon), he could come out and whoop your ass, since a bad result to start with might even mean that he managed to get a hand in between the garrotte and his neck. A fighter with a knife/short sword and a hand inside your garrotte will chop your fingers off the next round, provided he is not stunned (-25 for aim - your QDB, but other than that it's a damn eazy aim, provided he doesn't fumble and sever his own spine). But mostly the result of a fight like this is him stunned and struggling for some rounds, getting weaker and finally dying, kind of like that cop in No Country for Old Men.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 05:13:29 PM by ZuS »
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Offline jurasketu

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 06:43:06 PM »
Air is not the only problem. A garrote compresses the carotid artery and cuts off blood supply to the brain. If successfully applied - i.e. the victim doesn't duck out of the way or get a hand up - the victim is unconscious in moments and dead after a couple of minutes. A standard choke hold can do the same thing. So I would only give the victim one or two chances in the first two rounds to avoid or break the hold or disable the attacker.

A very strong, agile or skilled unarmed victim might be able to deliver an attack to disable the attacker, slam the attacker into a nearby object like a wall or tree, or execute a judo, aikido or wrestling maneuver to escape the choke. But I would only allow that in the second round - assuming they failed to defeat the initial choke attempt.

A victim holding a weapon would stab or clobber the attacker with ease. So it would be almost suicidal to attempt to garrote a victim holding a ready weapon. Obviously, an *active* defender is almost impossible to choke or garrote - there is just no way the attacker will be able to surprise the defender.

And if the victim isn't a *normal* human... Garrote a troll? Choke out an ogre? I think NOT...

Just my thoughts...

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« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 06:48:32 PM by jurasketu »
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Offline ZuS

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 07:31:29 PM »
And if the victim isn't a *normal* human... Garrote a troll? Choke out an ogre? I think NOT...

DAMMIT! there goes my cunning plan...
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 05:54:18 AM »
Don't forget, a garrote doesn't only choke the victim it cuts into their neck. Some victims have nearly had their head cut clean off with a garrote. Of course, it depends upon the type of "garrote" being used.
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Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2009, 07:35:49 AM »
So far I agree with Zus, but you'll have to get the rest of the party to agree to the garrot house rules.... I'm staying right out of this one!


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Offline ZuS

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2009, 10:09:01 AM »
So far I agree with Zus, but you'll have to get the rest of the party to agree to the garrot house rules.... I'm staying right out of this one!
 :box:

If you agree with Zus, you should know that Zus thinks that the "remains in garrotte, even if assassin failed to achieve pass-out or kill result" is a borderline case that I would let critical decide. If you look at the Grapple Critical Table, I would almost certainly say that any result below 80 is not a choke hold and the target is ready for you the next round (even if stunned).

If the ambush roll failed all together, the result might still be a choke hold, if you go for a Power-Strike attack AND aim for the neck (up to -50 for aim (Martial Law rules), -20 for the Power Strike and +10 to cap, getting you to 90 cap and STILL you might roll a 0, 1 or 2 and miss the neck). Even if the intended victim loses initiative for drawing a weapon and is stunned, he would probably be able to stop your choke-hold attempt with his DB. This is the equivalent of using garrotte in open combat, and that would generally be a bad idea, because I don't think they can parry a real weapon and garrotting anything else than someone's neck is really useless - you might hold his arm, but unless he is naked and your garrotte is  made of razor wire, no he will only get superficial bruising. Unless you specifically get a martial arts style using a garrotte-like weapon (kusarigama for example). Using that in an ambush would give you a modifier, since it's not meant to be used as a garrotte, and it certainly might make a sound - chain tends to do that.

BTW - these are really not house rules, but simply interpreting the situation by using present HARP combat rules.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:28:10 AM by ZuS »
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Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 06:35:25 PM »
Sorry Zus,...

I was actually talking to Sazen who is a player in my game.
We all agree on rules before making them House Rules, which is what I was referring to....

Sorry for the confusion...
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Offline Pat

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 07:16:28 AM »
Howabout the victim "lives" for the number of rounds equal to its constitution bonus. So, if its con bonus is 9 he/she dies in 9 rounds due to strangulation and pressure to the carotid artery. I'd also allow the victim to make an opposed strength check verses his attacker to break free. Every round the victim loses -10 cumulative to his roll due to the effects of the strangulation.

So using the above example of constitution bonus +9, the maximum number of rounds the victim can live is 9 rounds. Every round an opposed strength check is made for the victim to break free with the following modifiers:
Round 1: Direct Strength check. Victim wins he breaks free, attacker wins strangulation continues.
Round 2: As above but victim's roll is at -10
Round 3: As above but victim's roll is at -20
etc etc
Round 9: Victim dies.......End of story

Offline Sazen

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 09:56:12 AM »
Pats idea was the vein i was thinking along. Increasing difficulty until passing out the death.

For the actual atttack... Since it is really a non combat use of skill (you cant duel someone and garrot them) i was looking the strangulation cheack as a subskill of ambush. Like Combat perception, Snimsl training or Rune Scribing, appy a negative to your ambush skill and thats the opposed Stamina RR to avoid passing out...

Offline Marc R

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 03:26:20 PM »
A lot depends on if it's a strangling or a cutting garrotte.

Even struggling, passing out from lack of blood flow is unlikely to happen in 10 sec (5 HARP rounds).

It might be remotely possible that a total stoppage of blood flow to/from the brain would do it that fast, but any strangle hold tight enough to do so would likely break the trachea, which would be irreversably fatal minus magic or a tracheotomy.

It's problematic, both from the goose/gander standpoint (will your PCs be happy to get choked out so fast by NPCs) and on the general logic of:

"Nearly cutting your head off with my dagger is usually fatal" = "Getting a rope around your neck is usually good for a choke KO". . . .essentially any logic that would apply to a garrotte sneak attack should equally and fairly apply to a throat slitting sneak attack too. . . .it should be equally possible to kill or KO using the two methods, and if anything, the throat cut should in fact be a bit easier. (since you don't have to loop the dagger over the person's head.)

Likely, the best way to resolve would be to write the garrotte up as a lethal piano wire style attack. . . .then modify it to a form of subduing attack where you only rarely accidentally kill someone.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 01:51:36 AM »
you cant duel someone and garrot them

You can if you're the UBER-NINJA!!  ;D
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Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 09:03:02 AM »
I like pats rule with the following change:

After the #of Con rounds the victim passes out - unconcious.
An extra round is required for the coop-de-grae - to kill them.

That way you can make them unconcious if thats all you want and then leave them unconcious. a Further effort is required to actually kill them...
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 04:16:05 PM »
It gets a bit complicated from there though, like what does it take to maintain the hold, how much DB do you have, what's the OB penalty for attacking while choked, how do you resolve getting out of it or cutting the string. . . .

I still suspect it would work out better to resolve it as some form of grapple attack to keep it within the rules as is. . .

IMO I generally allow a Coup de Gras on any helpless, undefended foe as a one round action, only requiring a maneuver if the attacker is rushed or there's some complicating factor. (Like if the guy you rapped on the head for a KO is wearing full articulated plate mail, it might not be casual to just bash his head in or cut his throat or break his neck, so you might need to spend a round pulling some armor loose to make a hole, or make a maneuver and hope your single golf swing to the head was enough to kill him through his helmet.)
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Offline Pat

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2009, 07:36:47 AM »
A lot depends on if it's a strangling or a cutting garrotte.

Even struggling, passing out from lack of blood flow is unlikely to happen in 10 sec (5 HARP rounds).


Actually if you impact the carotid artery hard enough (and in the right way) a person can fall unconscious instantly. This is especially true if you impact both carotids at the same time.

Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2009, 08:54:38 AM »
A person committing suicide by cutting the artery in the arm will pass out in six (6) seconds.

If the artery to the neck is compressed enough, I see no reason who strangulation would not be very close to  the same!
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 10:18:09 AM »
If you check my comment above you'll see that I have doubts a non fatal injury would KO someone that fast. . .applying enough pressure to the neck to completely cut off blood flow, while not actually damaging the blood vessels or the trachea or the spine, is not casual. You're playing around with the very real risk of killing the target when you attempt neck holds. . .and every martial art that uses them tends to teach neck holds with a lot of warnings about the risks involved.

EVERY police force in the US has a ban on officers using choke holds to subdue suspects unless conditions justify the use of lethal force. . .i.e. whatever is going on has to be sufficiant justification to shoot the suspect before you should be choking them. There are less regulatory rules about playing stickball with the suspect using a nightstick than there are about choke holds, which should give some indication of how dangerous applying lots of force to the neck can be.

This is due to the fact that strangling someone who's struggling, and getting it done quickly, requires force that is quite capable of killing them, while chokes done at force levels that won't kill the target (while also taking into account the forces involved with the target struggling) take a really long time. . .to the point where it's just more effective to go for a limb immobalization hold, or a pain/submission hold, if your intention is to subdue, rather than kill.

Most strangulation murders are a result of a broken hyoid/trachea, thrombosis of the blood vessels, or a broken spine, not mere oxygen deprivation. . .and all too often the defendant says "I didn't mean to kill him/her."

Take a good look at any UFC bout, and see how often someone is KOed "instantly" by a choke hold. . . those guys are being very aggressive, and still holding back so as not to kill their opponant. . .and it often takes a while before the target goes down, much less out. . .if it was possible to tap-KO someone with a shot to the neck without risking killing them, you'd be seeing that often in those bouts. . .those UFC boys love a good choke hold.

If you're gonna kill the target anyway, then whatever, but if you sling a rope or wire around someone's neck and exert enough force to expect to KO them quickly, then there should be a very real potential for killing them. (With a thin rope or wire, I'd say you're far more likely to kill them than subdue them.)

A garrotte is an assassination weapon, a lethal weapon, not a non lethal subdual weapon. . .look at the people historicly who trained to use choke ropes or wires. . .they're not people who are looking for live captives.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 10:24:24 AM by LordMiller »
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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Strangulation
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 12:58:49 PM »
Which may be the issue with this whole discussion...

How "real" do you want your game to be?
If you are going for strict simulation or a "realistic" type campaign, then LordMiller is right on the mark.
If you want a more "super-heroey" or "action movie" type game, then something more akin to Pat and Sazens ideas would be best...

Just my 2 cents...
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