Author Topic: An idea.......  (Read 4612 times)

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Offline RandalThor

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An idea.......
« on: June 15, 2009, 06:57:31 PM »
Some comments on another thread got me thinking. Take a look at where that got me and let me know what you think:

Endurance / Hits
   This system replaces Endurance with Hits and is intended to inject a little more ?realism? into the HARP RPG. The basic premise is that each and every being, be it a person, monster, construct, or whatever, has a more-or-less set number of hits it can take before being killed or destroyed. Another way to say it is that everything has a damage capacity, which is tied explicitly to it?s size and mass. So, two human, men will have very similar Hit totals ? even if they are of different sizes and physical fitness levels.
   As this is a more direct method of determining how much damage something can take, another method for reflecting how more skilled opponents ?lessen? the blows they do suffer has to be done another way. No more increasing hits by training. Instead, the more experienced individual will generally have trained in combat movement which makes them harder to hit in the first place. With the HARP system, a higher DB means a lower crit result overall, so consequently weaker hits and less damage. This seems to be a more accurate method for showing the more experienced combatants skill than an abstract increasing hits method.
   Now, because the system already has in place the sacrifice rule, where the combatant sacrifices some or all of it?s OB to augment it?s DB, this increasing DB can?t be too much. This is so that each combatant will still se the need for lessening their OB to increase their DB, to reflect their active attempt to defend themselves against attacks.

Hits Calculation:

Hits Base* + Str Mod + Con Mod = Total Hits

*Each race has a base number of hits that is determined by their size & mass. So, generally, a larger creature will have more hits than a smaller one.

Base Hits Table
           Race:                                   Base Hits:   
 
   Dwarf            50
   Elf            40
   Gnome            30
   Gryx            60
   Halfling            30
   Human            50
 

   As a general rule of thumb, each race can have a maximum number of hits equal to twice their base hits ? barring supernatural means. That way, even with excellent attributes, their hit totals can never get too high, though it will rarely be a problem.




Combat Maneuvering

   It seemed as if the warrior was dancing across the chamber, his sword weaving delicate, deceptively slow arcs ? but that was a dangerous assumption. For, it just appeared slow. Each and every movement was fluid lightning, and somehow met every spear thrust from the clumsy seeming orc warriors. His feet glided, miraculously missing the various detritus on the floor ? including the warrior?s first 2 orc victims. No matter how they attacked, the orcs just couldn?t touch him. But, to the orc?s rising consternation, the reverse was not true?.   
       Combat maneuvering is the primary defense skill for melee combat and everyone  needs to take at least a few ranks ? those individuals who will be in the thick of battle most often need to take as many as they can. Basically, it is a DB modifier to be used against all melee combat attacks, but it doesn?t protect against missile attacks, including spells with range (like Elemental Bolt). It is unaffected by armor quickness penalties, but encumbrance modifiers are applied to combat maneuvering.
   Unlike other skills, it never gets a +5 or +2 bonus, it is always a +1/rank bonus. Every rank in this skill applied directly to the character?s DB.
(Combat ? DB ? Bonus)

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 06:58:26 PM »
I guess I shouldn't have bothered to try and align the table....*sigh*
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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 08:40:23 PM »
I like the central idea, but the more I think about it, the more torn I am.

Endurance does have the problem of increasing too much, and creating a vast disparity between a level five and a level two, when there really shouldn't be too much.  They both only have the same amount of blood to bleed per round.

However, Endurance DOES curt around the term "health".  Endurance is just as the name implies; it is how much a character can endure.  So it's believable that a stronger individual can Endure more than a weaker individual.

What I might do is instead of replace the Endurance system, perhaps tweak it so that a portion of it is Hits.

For example:

If using Hack & Slash:  Damage done by the roll on the table is done to Endurance, bleeding and critical damage is ALSO done to Hits.

Healing spells can only heal Endurance; it takes extra healing (ritual?) for healing Hits.  Hits are determined by Race Base Endurance + 2x Con (bonus).  This never changes.

If you're going to use Hits instead of Endurance, I think it might be a good idea to just tweak the Endurance system already there; you already have races with Base Endurance!

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 09:36:33 PM »
I don't see how it is any more intuitive or helpful...

But hey! That's just me!  ;)
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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 09:38:22 PM »
Wait, isn't this essentially Dugger's Life Points system?

Offline SamwiseSeven

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 09:40:37 PM »
It is an interesting idea.  Old White Wolf had the same general idea as well, with most things having the same amount of Health before they keeled over.  

Play test it and see how it works.   ;D

I doubt anyone would agree with me, hehe, but as a similar idea, you could have every character have the same amount of Endurance.  Perhaps this amount would increase per level, or perhaps it would stay static, making higher level combat more deadly.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 12:41:01 PM »
Karizma: You could use Stamina to reflect, well stamina. As for Duggers Life Points system, I don't know, maybe.

RWW: OK, so in HARP endurance actually represents the amount of physical punishment an individual can take. I truly do not think that it is intuitive to say that an individual with more experience can take more punishment. The opposite is actually more true. Believe it or not, scars cannot be counted as armor. Most of the time when someone is hurt somewhere that area is more succeptical (Is that the right spelling? My spell checker won't give me any options.) to damage in that area. How do you "work out" your hits anyway.

Now we could say that Endurance reflects exactly what it says and that the "hits" taken from the crit charts (not the the direct critical damage such as blood loss, negative modifier, the description which is the actual "damage") are endurance points to say damage tires you out. But if we did this, then the idea that zero endurance means that you are dying needs to be thrown out the window. When you are so tired you pass out, you are immediately in rest mode replenishing your endurance. Now, some of the nasty crits may mean that you are dying, but that is the crit talkin' and not the endurance points/hits. This would mean that HARP has gone away from the archtypical game model of deteriorating hit points mean deteriorating health & vitality. I could work with that. It would mean that I have to put in a scaling modifer chart for the loss of endurance, just like in RM - but that could/should be done with it anyway, imo.

This concept reflects the idea that two individuals of the same race, will be able to take about the same amount of punishment, but that the one with the better training will be better able to limit that punishment from occuring. I think that a system like that is a better one than an arbitrary hit point system - which I have consistantly moved away from as i moved away from DnD.

I know that most of the games that go with hit points do it because it is easy. The others tend to have too limited damage scales, imo. Like Mutants & Masterminds, I don't like going directly from stun to near death. There should be something in between, more than one thing imo. That is where they fail, imo.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 12:44:34 PM »
Now, I wouldn't say that everything had the same amount of health/hits, even two individuals of the same race can have different number of hits. Just not soooo different.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 01:01:16 PM »
Oh, I meant to say SamwiseSeven, that all of this is theoretical. I have no game group to test this out on, but I am more than OK with any/all of you to do so, if you wish.
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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 01:45:58 PM »
It's okay, I too enjoy a a good "thinkin' abouts' ("theory" sounds a bit too stuck up for "let's talk about a game!")

Like I said before, I like the idea/reasoning, but I'm trying to judge how it will work in play.

Now I've looked over it, and would like to throw an idea at you.

"Combat Maneuvering" could be the skill that determines how much OB can be sacrificed for DB, as you said it needs to be limited... in some way.  Just a thought, I'm too tired to flesh it out at the moment! ;)

Offline Maelstrom

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 05:44:30 PM »
I've always been drawn to the idea of "set hits" for combat.  Would you consider adding SD to the mix?  That would represent the people that will themselves to live when others would concede their life.  Alternately, You could make the base as the Con stat with modifiers for Strength, SD and possibly race.



I have a couple of alternate ideas that come to mind for Combat Manuevering skill.  First, it acts just like all other skills: 5*skill rank for ranks 1 to 10.

Option one: a Bonus skill roll based on Combat Manuevering (normal skill bonus) can provide a bonus to DB for that particular round.

Option two: a Percentage roll that determines the amount of OB that can be used to parry.  Results of over 100% would represent a full parry and provide bonus DB if all OB were applied to DB. Example: CM roll results in 75% allowing Seniorita Switchblade to use a max of 60 OB to parry with.  She is then allowed to make an attack with 20 OB (or more if she used less than 60 OB to parry.)

I like option two better, but option one could be used to make characters more cautious about combat.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 04:26:08 PM »
Karizma: The only problem in being that it disallows full-defense. They need to still be able to go full defense.

Maelstrom: You could add SD in there, but the idea is a totally mass/physical based number of hits. The SD can be used as a modifer to the modifiers of being hurt - like with stuned maneuvering in RM.

Options One & Two: I just don't want to add any more rolls, which is why I have gone for a set bonus, less than regular skills.

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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 06:17:58 AM »
I've used a combat style that adds +1/rank to DB for years, specifically for a Sword Dancer TP that I created.  The Style also allows for the PC to make a Dance Roll in combat to decieve an opponent, making their attack a "surprise".
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2009, 03:26:55 PM »
So, in other words, the Swordancer had a special professional ability to use dance to Bluff/Feint their opponents. That is pretty-cool. I woulnd't mind more "special" professional abilities, maybe a small list of them for each profession that the player chooses from to more personalize their character.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2009, 10:04:44 PM »
So, in other words, the Swordancer had a special professional ability to use dance to Bluff/Feint their opponents. That is pretty-cool. I woulnd't mind more "special" professional abilities, maybe a small list of them for each profession that the player chooses from to more personalize their character.
You could do something that uses the PC level in terms of ranks.  So like a level 4 could act as "four ranks", that way they progress slowly if it's too powerful, and better yet, it's not something they would have to purchase with DPs!

Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2009, 11:21:20 PM »
I think witchking was referring to skill ranks in a combat style adding to a special ability. I can see going that way with HARP as they have gone away from level dependent abilities (mostly), but I see certain things increasing automatically with level.

Take Chuck, for example. (The TV show that will, unfortunately not last past the next season.  :'() He is a "normal" modern guy, no real combat abilities to speak of that gets government secrets implanted into his brain. After being thrown into numerous situations where people are shooting at him, trying to stab him, punching and kicking him, wouldn't he just be able to "handle" those stressful situations better as a matter of experience? I think so. Not that he would become an awesome fighter without training, just that you can go 2 basic directions after being in numerous stressful situations: 1) You become a nuerotic mess, where the wind scares you and you don't want to leave your bedroom, or 2) You become more "numb" to them and is correspondingly calmer in the face of danger. You could call it the Scab vs. Bleed situation. Either you scab or keep bleeding out. In these games, unless something specific occurs, we assume the characters only get better.

I like a combination of the two, some things only get better if you train in them, while somethings just come along as you "adventure". Of course, we can just enforce the purchasing of certain abilities to reflect them getting better, or they don't and have to suffer the concequences.
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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2009, 12:17:04 AM »
True.  Personally, I'm always wary of making a new skill, as that gives something to take away DPs from somewhere else.  On top of that, I'm starting to churn with the idea that your profession has some skill or talent that ONLY that profession has access to.

This is a really bad example, but it fits aptly.  In some MMOGs, your class can have two "paths" or "builds".  These help separate one Mage from another Mage.

Note that HARP does not need this at all, and that two 6th level Dwarf Fighters can be VERY different very easily.  But some people like to have the class/profession give them a sense of identity.  Not all, but some.

Giving class-specific abilities which they can just do locks that in.  Necessary? Of course not.  But for the right people, it can be nice.

As an afterthought, it also gives a bit more substance to Levels, if you even want that.  Some people like level-less, but it's all up to personal taste.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2009, 04:40:10 AM »
I tell ya, I keep going back and forth on the level system vs levelless system! I see were they both have good and bad points, just not entirely sure of how to pull it off exactly.

Somethings, like being able to just stay calm in a stressful situation, would go up the more experience you get with stressful situations. (Although it is still scary, I would imagine that the 100th time someone pulls a weapon on you is not quite as scary as the first time, right?)

Other things, like most skills, will still need to be trained/studied in order to get better, though I definately like the idea of making it easier if they used the skill - especially if they used it a lot. Unfortunately, to determine how much they used what skill, would require a bit of book keeping, which is something that most people are trying to lessen.

Balancing those two aspects has been kind of tricky, but think about this:

Instead of experience you do direct DP awards. (I believe someting like this has been thrown out there before, but I just don't remember by who or when.) You spend those DPs like you normally would - any "level" limitations on skill ranks would have to be handled by the GM, but could fall under what I am about to propose. Keeping track of your total DPs (just like you would with XPs, so no new book keeping) you use the total to determine the overall experience of the individual, and use that number divided by 50 to determine a modifier to certain abilities, like initiative and surprise checks*. That way you have made a levelless system that still takes experience into account without forcing the player to spend DPs.

*I believe that both of these abilities should be steadily increased as one gets more experienced - and not just by increasing attributes (quickness, insight, etc). It doesn't make sense that just because the 1st level guy has a higher Quickness bonus, that they should get the initiative over the 10th level guy - unless that quickness bonus is tremendous.

Wow, I seem to be writing longer and longer posts. Wonder what has gotten into me....
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Offline Karizma

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2009, 01:24:41 PM »
Crazy!  I had a similar idea regarding DPs and levels.  Either we both have coincidental independent invention or we both steal from the great inventor before us!

First and foremost, we should monitor how many times a player will use a skill.  I am thinking three times before an increase.

Then, make character sheets where you have four little checkboxes, like the Rolemaster ones.  Favored Categories can have two columns of the checkboxes marked through.  Each time a character performs a successful action, he gains one check (only one check per in-game day).  So essentially, every success is a DP gone toward that skill.  Once the character fills all the checkboxes, he can rest, erase them, and add a rank.

Maybe after he earns thirty of these DPs, he can spend an amount of Free DPs from his profession (at first level they are free ranks, then every level after they become free DPs).  So that's a total of 50 DPs, you keep the freedom of spending some DPs when you "level", but the majority of your experience is based on WHAT you do.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: An idea.......
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2009, 07:04:41 PM »
Crazy!  I had a similar idea regarding DPs and levels.  Either we both have coincidental independent invention or we both steal from the great inventor before us!

Probably the stealing option.  ;D

Each time a character performs a successful action, he gains one check (only one check per in-game day). 

As it is widely accepted that we mostly learn from our mistakes, perhaps the check mark should be made no matter the outcome, or even only when you fail. I would even - if I can get a char sheet with enough boxes - say to check the box every time you use the skill. Say that every ten or twenty uses is a full DP, with exceptional successes and failures adding 2 checks. If you are going with the only failures get check marks, I would go with the every ten equals a DP, which means they would have to fail 20 times in order to get a "free" rank in the favored skill. I say "free" because I am sure they are paying for that knowledge, just not in the normal DP way. Just a rough draft idea.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.