Author Topic: Rolemaster Issues  (Read 17822 times)

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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2009, 07:13:49 AM »
I think Grinnen may have been referring tot he inclusion of the 66 on the Static Maneuver tables in RMSS?

Offline Marc R

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2009, 09:11:23 AM »
Well, that is just goofiness. . .unless you ambush that lock you intend to pick.

Likely, that's just "Cool" factor. . ..

The random 66 in the crit table for non ambush situations led to PCs jumping around happy to roll said 66. . .so putting a 66 result on the SM tables could similarly provoke happiness.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 09:30:36 AM by LordMiller »
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2009, 12:39:24 PM »
I was referring to the crit tables and any other tables that the 66 has any significant result greater than a result numerically higher.  ;)

I personally don't agree with the inclusion of it's existance just to enhance the Ambush skill (even if that was the intention ;) ). I prefer that specifc skill to allow latitude in the ability of the user to place a blow for specifc effect or target area. Therefore the user has the ability to vary the result of a critical by a small margin, and a low crit result should result in a less effective blow.. even if the critical was from ambush.   

Offline Marc R

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2009, 01:01:28 PM »
Using the weakest A tables, you have a 6% of taking a target down (66, 96-99 or a 00 result)

The 66 result triples the effectiveness of ambush. . .since you can go up to 96, down to 66 or up to 66 with your crit mod. . .

Thus, each rank raises the lethality of an ambush critical by 3%

Taking the odds to 50% of dying if attacked from ambush by an 8th level attacker with 15 ranks. (I'll ignore the miniscule odds that you'd fail to hit and get at least an A crit attacking by surprise)

From there it drops off to 1% per rank of increased lethality.

If you shoved the 66 result up to the end of the table, so you had 95, 96-99, 00 as the down/dead results (thus not changing the odds, just the placement of the 66 to 95) you'd radically change the benefits of ambush.

The sweet spot where 50% of all hits are down/dead would go from 15 ranks (approx 8th level) to 44 ranks (approx 21st level)

The line of 66% would go from 31 ranks (approx 15th level) to 60 ranks (approx 29th level)

the line of 75% would go from 40 ranks (approx 19th level) to 69 ranks (approx 34th level)

The 90% would go from 55 ranks (approx 27th level) to 84 ranks (41st level)

The utter doom assassin who any ambush strike kills would go from 65 ranks (32nd level) to 94 ranks (46th level)

Without the 66. . .you'd really need to cut the cost of ambush, as it'd loose a lot of it's benefit, especially that steep curve of benefit up to 15 ranks, before it falls off for 16+ ranks.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2009, 02:59:18 PM »
Looking in from the outside, I'd have to agree with Grinnen. Changing a crit chart that impacts such a large portion of the game just to address a single skill seems to be a mistake. There has to be a better way to handle ambush rather than corrupting the validity of the crit charts.
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Offline markc

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2009, 03:32:28 PM »
 I have to say I like the 66 and so do most of the players I have played with. Some have used ambush and some have not in various games. Also as a house rule I do not let people mod the result to 66, 99 or 00; so the above ambush rules do not apply fully to my experiences.
 It is just another number besides 100 to look forward to rolling. And the crit results tend too be eye watering and bring about cringes from GM's and players alike.

 But every game is different.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2009, 03:43:51 PM »
what validity?

Ambush is the only common factor that affects criticals. . .(there are 2 uncommon factors, one the lucky BGO the other the I and II damage reduction levels)

If criticals were completely random, it wouldn't matter where the results are. . .the 00 lethal result could be the 23 instead, and it wouldn't matter at all. . .there's no "Validity" for placing more lethal results close to 00 and less lethal ones down near 01 other than the gut feel of low-bad, high-good. . .

But once you put the Ambush skill into play, the placement of the lethal/down results matters a lot. . .but only matters for the purposes of the Ambush skill, essentially.

The fact that the criticals have any order at all is not an arbitrary flow from weak to strong, it's a flow from weak to strong with an irregularity at exactly the 2/3 mark that allows for a particular pattern of Ambush development where the first 14 ranks are worth 3%, the 15th rank is worth 2% and every rank past that is worth 1%.

Moving the 66 result to 95 would be akin to saying:

"OK, rather than the first 10 ranks of a skill being worth +5, now they are worth +2"

The problem is that changing ambush to the standard bonus progression, then allowing the bonus, rather than the ranks to apply to the critical would just be too powerful. . .but reversing to ranks/level so every rank is worth just 1% is too weak. . .while rank/level with the 66 on the crit table is "just right". . . .

That odd and out of place 66 result on the critical tables might annoy for it's non ansthetic, contrary to pattern position. . .but since it only comes up in context of the ambush skill, then you'd have to actually lay out an actual improvement to Ambush as the justification for moving it out of there. . .merely that it would make the pattern more asthetically pleasing is not a good enough reason, IMO.

(i.e. propose a "fix" for ambush that doesn't just replace one asthetic oddity with a rule by exception, and I'll get on that bandwagon, but until then I prefer the asthetic oddity to yet another rule that is done completely different for one instance than any other. It allows +1/rank with the table tweaked, and for as MarkC mentioned, the shout of "66!" at the table, a beloved RM moment.)
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2009, 06:49:52 PM »
LM, your position is dependent upon the ambusher only getting an A crit result. If you have all the advantages of getting a successful ambush off and roll so poor as to only get an A, then you shouldn't have a 50% chance to kill them. More likely (in the successful ambush scenario) you are at least getting a C crit, if not a D (really an E, as you negate the target's DB significantly). What are the odds (moving the 66 up) then? (Really, what are the odds? I am not going to do that math!  ;D)

I have always felt that the 66 phenomena was weird, to say the least. When everything else about the system says: Rolling higher is better, to have a single thing go the other way gives it a hiccup - at the very least. IMO.
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Offline markc

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2009, 06:57:22 PM »
IMO I think it was another way to make RM different than D&D and the other games back then. But I am just guessing.
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 Also if you do not like it just extend on of the two results on either side of it and ignore the 66 result.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2009, 06:59:19 PM »
I probably use the ambush skill incorrectly as it is. (I use RMSS rather than RM2)

How I adjudicate that particular skill is much the same as I would a spell list, i.e. the bonus determines chance of success with the skill and the number of ranks determines effectiveness or power.

That is to say that each skill rank counts as +3, with each category rank being +2. (i.e. Standard progression)

That gives you a basic skill roll, if successful you can modify the result by +1/-1 to achieve a desired result or hit on a specific location.

Where my interpretation of the skill definitely differs is the application of difficulty to the roll and the situations in which it can be attempted. I allow positional modifier to affect the chance.. and more importantly allow additional levels of difficultly in situations where the attempt could not normally be made. I.e. In standard one-on-one melee or with missile weapons/spells. Therefore the skill has a far wider range of applications.

Incidently, I don't use the skill as an additional roll, rather the character chooses the MINIMUM of either the weapon skill or the Ambush skill bonus to determine the OB of the attack and the MINIMUM of the weapon or ambush ranks to determine the effect. (edit: If they wish to make an ambush attempt..otherwise simply the OB of the weapon skill as normal)

So in effect I use the skill as a combination of Ambush, Sniping and Targeting skills.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 07:04:49 PM by Grinnen Baeritt »

Offline Marc R

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2009, 07:50:52 PM »
Rand,

roughly, average A crits take you out of a fight 8% of the time, B-D 10% of the time, and E 12% of the time. . .I used 6% as the dinkiest possible A critical, but really, the variation involved is minimal.

E crits are only slighly more lethal than A crits, what they mostly do is really ruin your day with stuns, bleeds and injuries.

GB,

     You are using the skill essentially exactly correctly AFAIK, but the mods to OB and Ranks are a bit different. (They make a lot of sense though, so a terrible ambusher gets weak OB, and it's hard to major crit modification with a weapon you have few ranks in.) . . . .but all of that is IMO aside issues to the structure of the Crit table with a 66 being an out of sequence peak of overdamage compared to 65 or 67 results.

     That 66 isn't there arbitrarily, it's very specifically there for use with ambush, to make critical modifcations more dangerous. It was placed in a position with mathmatical precision. . .the fact that the 51-66 space is as close to 1/2 the 67-96 space as possible is no quirk or annomaly, it's a carefully calculated positioning that makes 51 + X = 66 AND 81 - X = 66 and 81 + X = 96. . .it seems like someone arbitrarily picked 66 out of a hat, but really, X = 15 creates a situation where with an overlap of 1, the 51-00 on the crit table are all fight ending results. . .it wasn't done so by hapenstance or accident or whim. . .Ambush is intended to be that lethal.

     Really, to be used properly, it's not easy either.

     Ambush was intended to take the place of the AD&D thief backstab ability, which if I recall back that far accurately, was quite nasty for AD&D. . .multiply that against the ratio of lethality of regular AD&D combat to RM combat and you get Ambush.
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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
I think one key item to remember is to ambush you must approach your foe undetected, I use a successful stalk to accomplish that. That is common to both RM2 and RMSS/RMFRP. After that, there is divergance on how it is used. But, the fact is, the ambusher will almost always be alone. He better have the ability to kill/incapacitate with one shot or he won't be around for very long.

Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2009, 04:54:16 AM »
I can't read the minds of those who designed the system... but 66 is an easy number to remember.  ;)

Rolemaster is superior to AD&D, D&D in many, many ways. The AD&D backstab ability was a class dependant ability, rather than a skill. It had many conditions which needed to be met before it could be used. And the major stumbling block was the presumption that the name  and the differing opinions as how (and when and what on) it could be used.

Some people have cited the lack of hit location here as an issue, personally in the majority of cases I believe it is irrelevant and a GM can always simply subtley alter the crit discription to suit the logical possibilities of a blow. (e.g. a leg critical has been indicated... though the attack roll had already been modified to take account of the cover provided by a waist high stone wall... a successful hit still happens, therefore he can't have been hit in the leg..). Many other systems get around this problem by having a "called shots" modifier, i.e. the attack roll is made at a penalty, if you miss you miss completely, otherwise you hit what you aim for.

This methodology can be applied in Rolemaster, you could simply determine the modifiers for attacking specific locations. However, I've always considered the hit or miss called shot rather illogical. What if in attempting to hit an arm your swing is blocked by the body? It makes sense in occasions where you are deliberately attempting to avoid hitting other parts of the body (like shooting a target in the leg to immobilise them...rather than kill them.) but not otherwise.

In most cases I would simply re-apply the modifier to determine the hit as normal and then modify the crit result to suit. Therefore hitting with the modifer means you hit the specifed location (and any crits are modified to represent that location being hit), hitting without the modifier means that any crit resulting from the blow is modified NOT to include that location.

Bearing this is mind we then come to the "Ambush" skill (which I'd rather call the Aimed blow or Precision Strike). This should not be affected by the modifiers to hit a specific area but effectively can be used in the same fashion but to greater effect. Failure indicates a complete failure to hit, a hit indictes a skewing towards a more controlled application upon the specfied target area. (i.e. It has a greater chance of achieving a specific critical result than a called shot)

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2009, 03:52:26 AM »
LM, I have to say that those numbers don't reflect the experience I have had playing RM. I remember way more single-or-double hit killing, a lot more. Heck, my "Batman" style character didn't have Ambush, but when I was able to attack from hiding, well more than half of the time I was able to kill in a single blow.

Maybe it was the GM, but he wasn't known for being uber player friendly, so I don't think so....
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Offline GoblynByte

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2009, 09:17:36 AM »
Some people have cited the lack of hit location here as an issue, personally in the majority of cases I believe it is irrelevant and a GM can always simply subtley alter the crit discription to suit the logical possibilities of a blow. (e.g. a leg critical has been indicated... though the attack roll had already been modified to take account of the cover provided by a waist high stone wall... a successful hit still happens, therefore he can't have been hit in the leg..). Many other systems get around this problem by having a "called shots" modifier, i.e. the attack roll is made at a penalty, if you miss you miss completely, otherwise you hit what you aim for.

This methodology can be applied in Rolemaster, you could simply determine the modifiers for attacking specific locations. However, I've always considered the hit or miss called shot rather illogical. What if in attempting to hit an arm your swing is blocked by the body? It makes sense in occasions where you are deliberately attempting to avoid hitting other parts of the body (like shooting a target in the leg to immobilise them...rather than kill them.) but not otherwise.

In most cases I would simply re-apply the modifier to determine the hit as normal and then modify the crit result to suit. Therefore hitting with the modifer means you hit the specifed location (and any crits are modified to represent that location being hit), hitting without the modifier means that any crit resulting from the blow is modified NOT to include that location.

Bearing this is mind we then come to the "Ambush" skill (which I'd rather call the Aimed blow or Precision Strike). This should not be affected by the modifiers to hit a specific area but effectively can be used in the same fashion but to greater effect. Failure indicates a complete failure to hit, a hit indictes a skewing towards a more controlled application upon the specfied target area. (i.e. It has a greater chance of achieving a specific critical result than a called shot)

In my experience, systems need to be built from the ground up to accept the mechanics of hit locations and appropriate effects resulting from using them.  D&D and Rolemaster were both built with the idea that damage interpretation was secondary to the results of the die roll.  You roll high, you do a lot of damage and the narration of that damage is made appropriately from that result.  In that paradigm, aiming for a specific location is a moot point.  It is assumed that, when attacking, your character is always going for the most effective strike he can obtain and narrative input from the user prior to the roll has little mechanical affect on the results of that die roll.  If he rolls well, he hits a vital location.  If he rolls poorly he hits a minor location.  What the attacker wants out of that situation ("I want to aim for the head because I want to cause more damage") is moot.  In both cases (D&D and RM) the entire mechanic of attacks and damage is built around this idea from the ground up.  Therefore, if you start to add hit location systems to them you must reconcile a number of cascading problems that begin to spread through the logic of the entire game.

By comparison, systems that are readily built with hit location systems must be able to accept narrative input of damage interpretation prior to any die rolls (they attack a specific location because they want a specific result) and still make sense after the die roll.  This is a mechanical feat rarely achieved in RPG design.




In defense of Ambush, it is generally assumed that hit locations that will cause more damage are more difficult to hit.  RM's core mechanic makes this assumption difficult to reconcile because making a location more difficult to hit (imposing a penalty on the attack roll) inherently decreases the amount of damage you're going to inflict.  The Ambush skill was designed to circumvent that paradox in the core mechanic by creating a mechanism by which the damage can be altered on the critical level.  So, the Ambush is a method by which the attacker can gain some measure of control in situations where hit location does make a difference, it is assumed that by taking extra care a more vital location can be hit in comparison with the frenzied attempts of a stand-up fight, and in the end the actual location hit is still left to interpretation of the final roll results.  In that respect it is a good tool for obtaining the effects of a hit location system without the 'mess' of attempting to build a hit location system. 

All this is staying consistent with RM's (and D&D's) core assumption that interpretation of damage is done after the results are obtained and that narrative input prior to the attack roll has little mechanical affect on the outcome.  So Ambush is a pretty clean way of having your cake and eating it too.




On the flip side, one could argue that such ability is already assumed in the core combat mechanic and that Ambush is superfluous at best.  A character who is attacking from a hidden position is generally going to be less worried about defense because his target is not going to be able to return an attack until the following round.  So the ambusher can simply apply his entire OB to his attack (leaving nothing for DB) which is an act that is assumed to happen with each round of a stand up fight.  Everyone's OB is assumed to be lower than it actually is because only the foolish or crazy actually attack without some attention to defense.  In an ambush situation this isn't the case.  So simply by virtue that defense is not as much of a concern until after the attack is delivered the effects of the Ambush skill could be trumped by the simple ability to devote everything to the attack.

Possible evidence of the superfluousness of Ambush is the fact that a lot of what was designed into RM at a very early stage was done so with the primary goal of taking what AD&D did and making it more detailed and more accessible to general PCs.  From that perspective, the Ambush skill was designed with the goal of working with the crit system they already designed in order to emulate the backstab ability of the AD&D thief (giving the transitioning AD&D players what they would expect to find) and, as a skill, to be available to anyone who wanted it (living up to RM's claim that it is more flexible than AD&D).  The reason I mention this is that any conversation regarding the "realism" or "appropriateness" of any trait in RM must take into consideration that, in many, many cases, the designers were making choices simply based on its association with another system that itself may not have been consistently "real" or "appropriate."
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2009, 05:07:09 AM »
Fumble not tied to competence of combatatns.

This idea I like a lot. Is there anything in RM about this? From all my experience, no, but I could have been missing something blatant.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2009, 04:29:28 PM »
Swashbuckling can be used to negate a weapon fumble.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2009, 08:40:36 AM »
D&D and Rolemaster were both built with the idea that damage interpretation was secondary to the results of the die roll.  You roll high, you do a lot of damage and the narration of that damage is made appropriately from that result.  In that paradigm, aiming for a specific location is a moot point.  It is assumed that, when attacking, your character is always going for the most effective strike he can obtain and narrative input from the user prior to the roll has little mechanical affect on the results of that die roll.  If he rolls well, he hits a vital location.  If he rolls poorly he hits a minor location.  What the attacker wants out of that situation ("I want to aim for the head because I want to cause more damage") is moot.  In both cases (D&D and RM) the entire mechanic of attacks and damage is built around this idea from the ground up.  Therefore, if you start to add hit location systems to them you must reconcile a number of cascading problems that begin to spread through the logic of the entire game.

By comparison, systems that are readily built with hit location systems must be able to accept narrative input of damage interpretation prior to any die rolls (they attack a specific location because they want a specific result) and still make sense after the die roll.  This is a mechanical feat rarely achieved in RPG design.


I quite agree, though D&D is actually random with respect to the amount of damage (hits) done compared to the accuracy of the attack roll. Any successful hit on a "normal" roll i.e. up to 19 on a d20 does a basically random amount of damage (apart from modification for magic and ability scores) whereas RM's basic "hits" damage is representative of the effectiveness of the blow (The critical roll isn't however, unlike HARP).

The called shots option is a bit of a problem. I assume that an opponent is simply trying to hit the opponent the best he can, not necessarily aiming for the area that will do the most damage. Therefore the normal result of a critical discription naturally determines the location hit. A called shot option in such as case should be used to simply modify the description of the area hit by the critical, for whatever reason. Lets say an opponent isn't wearing a helmet, or not wearing greaves. In such cases, the attacker performing a called shot would be favouring attacking those certain locations but still attacking the opponent with the intention to hit them.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2009, 06:17:45 PM »
Swashbuckling can be used to negate a weapon fumble.

Which means developing a separate skill, yet another RM DP sink. I like the idea that for every so many ranks in a skill, the fumble range goes down by one. I like the idea of 10 ranks per -1 fumble range. Of course, the minimum being 01. That means that in order to get the minimum the character has to have 40+ ranks in the weapon. That is some serious ability/training.
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Offline markc

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Re: Rolemaster Issues
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2009, 06:48:02 PM »
Swashbuckling can be used to negate a weapon fumble.

Which means developing a separate skill, yet another RM DP sink. I like the idea that for every so many ranks in a skill, the fumble range goes down by one. I like the idea of 10 ranks per -1 fumble range. Of course, the minimum being 01. That means that in order to get the minimum the character has to have 40+ ranks in the weapon. That is some serious ability/training.

 I think I would limit the amount that the F range would decrease by as some weapons are just unwieldy no matter how good you are with them. I can also see letting the player by a talent or let them select from a number of talents every 10 ranks per weapon skill. This way everyone is not the same as it is in real life.

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