Topic: Stun Relief

[markc]

 I was looking through the RMC Spell Law and happened upon the Awake Spell and Stun relief page 87 and my brain started clicking. See the Awake post for thoughts about the Awake post in this section. But I think the same discussion can work for RMX/C/2, SM2 and RMSS/FRP, SM:P.
 Now if the Awake spell and stun relief are the same type of spell for casting purposes or have the same mechanism of casting then they are really something else. [Talking about stun relief only] They allow a caster who is stunned to instantly cast a spell while their brains and thoughts are scrambled. The downside is that the spell casters mind casts the spell if they like it or not. [Note some GM's let the caster decide if they are going to cast the spell when I think it happens automatically by the rules. If the caster can choose then they can determine if they want to save the PP's or not. If it is automatically then they do not have the chance to manage their PP's.]
 Now this is very powerful IMO, should not the spells be changed to one that has a longish duration and if anyone wants the benefit of the ability they should cast the spell before they need it instead of having a special class of spells that are very powerful.
Thoughts
MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Here is how I view things...

1) A subconscious spell is a spell that ignores negative penalties (such as from being stunned or so forth), and will work while a character is even unconscious to save that character's life. To me this is a Good Thing. This is, IMO, the main purpose of a subconscious spell, to be able to ignore penalties from stun or other damage (and even ESF mods!!!).

2) A character's subconscious cannot cast spells that are above the character's level. This means that 10th level spell that is marked as being "subconscious" will not actually gain that ability until the caster is also 10th level. Before that point, it is just another spell that he cannot cast (unless ESF rules are being used).

3) A subconscious spell takes just as long to cast as a normal spell (i.e. a 10th level caster knows a 10th level subconscious spell - if triggered, that spell takes 3 rounds to be cast and go off if it is not an instantaneous spell as well).

4) Subconscious spells require a percentage of activity equal to the casting of a conscious spell (i.e. an instantaneous subconscious spell, such as Stun Relief I requires 75% of the caster's activity in the round that it is cast).

5) Because a subconscious spell requires that the caster devote activity to it for it's casting, the caster can refuse to devote the activity to it, and thus prevent the spell from going off. This is basically "Canceling an action" and will require 10% of his activity for the round. And if the caster cancels it immediately, he won't lose the PP for the spell (he loses the PP if more than half of the casting time has passed before he cancels it).

6) A character that is unconscious cannot cancel a subconscious spell. Only a conscious character can do that.

[Fornitus]

 Maybe I am missing something.
 Why would the subconscious not be able to cast a spell that is higher than the characters level but still in the learned catagory?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Maybe I am missing something.
 Why would the subconscious not be able to cast a spell that is higher than the characters level but still in the learned catagory?

Why can't a conscious character cast a spell above his level that he knows? According to the core rules, a character cannot cast any spell that is above his level, period. The subconscious isn't going to be able cast something that the conscious mind cannot cast.

Things can be slightly more complicated if using any of ESF rules.

Personally, I would allow a subconscious spell to ignore ESF mods that originate outside of the body (i.e. equipment, armor, helm, etc..). Then take other ESF and decide on a case by case basis (i.e ESF Mods for spell level WOULD apply).

But in all cases, the thing to remember, the subconscious spells are meant to help the character. Casting a spell that is above one's level is going to be dangerous in the extreme, and not something that the subconscious is likely to do....

[Fornitus]

 Maybe I have been playing so long with House Rules and Comp optional rules that we like, I am more unfamiliar with the "core" rules than I thought.
 So, under "core" rules, a Pure caster pickes up a 1-10 list and cant cast the 6th lvl spell with their multiplier beacuse they are 5th lvl?
 Beacuse if that is so, then the PC has NOT "learned" a list to 10th lvl. They only learn it to their lvl and then are constintly learning the next spell,on every list they have,every time they go up a lvl. That would drasticaly change the way we look at learning spells.

 Maybe this is the wrong thread for this or I just need to do some more research into the "core" rules intent. I just get suprised once in a while when reading these posts.

[Warl]

If you use the very basic Core rules yes.

It isn't so much that they haven't "learned" the spell so much.

The way I look at it is that the caster has mastered the "Concepts" of a Given core idea that empowers a List. But that Certain "effects" of that core concepts are beyond their ability based on Level. If you use the ESF optional rules then they can Go beyond their level but with RISK of ESF becuase they don't Fully understand that level of Effect.

[markc]

 It really depends on if your are playing RM2 or RMC/X or RMSS/FRP. I have been looking at the RMC stuff and tehy have quite a few optional rules that you could almost turn it in to RMSS/FRP.

MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

So, under "core" rules, a Pure caster pickes up a 1-10 list and cant cast the 6th lvl spell with their multiplier beacuse they are 5th lvl?

Correct, according to the core rules, you buy ranks and then roll, and if the total is greater than or equal to 100, then you learn a block of spells.

You then "know" all of the spells within that block, even if you cannot cast them (i.e. a 1st level caster could know Light Law to 10th level, but would only be able to cast the first level spell), regardless of whether or not you have the PP.

Then, as you go up in level, the higher level spells become castable once you are of equal level.

Beacuse if that is so, then the PC has NOT "learned" a list to 10th lvl. They only learn it to their lvl and then are constintly learning the next spell,on every list they have,every time they go up a lvl. That would drasticaly change the way we look at learning spells.

He has learned it, at least in the sense that he does not have to spend any more Development Points on it. He just isn't considered proficient enough to cast it until he reaches the same level.

Maybe this is the wrong thread for this or I just need to do some more research into the "core" rules intent. I just get suprised once in a while when reading these posts.

Hey, even the RMC Team were surprised at times, especially when they discovered that a number of things that they thought were core turned out to be optional rules afterall.....   


On a more personal note, I prefer using the following options in regards to spells
1) Base Power Points -- starts a player off with about 10 more PP than normal.
2) Fast PP Regen -- totally get rids of the need to have multipliers, and keeps low level mages from being useless once PP run out. Also keeps higher level mages (IMO) from having so many Power Points (through multipliers) that they can dominate a combat through multiple high level spell.
3) Non-Random Spell Acquisition by Individual Spell --You buy each level of a spell list individually, and can purchase ranks in multiple lists each level. However, spell lists are still limited by the level caps as per the core rules
4) Class IV Spells -- Allows limited overcasting, 3 levels above caster's own level, and includes rules for even learning directed spells skill (in a limited fashion) for a bolt spell once it becomes a class IV spell.

[Marc R]

The logic there is why overcasting was created as an option. . .so that a 1st level caster could attempt a 10th level spell. . just with an ESF risk.

We actually discussed this issue in depth relating to the "Healer Troll" potential, and I don't think anyone argued against the strict interpretation of the rules as Tim laid it out above. . .You can always option or house rule, but there are risks to game balance involved.

"Healer Troll" was a powergamer tactic seen in RM2: Take a Troll, they have very high hits, and natural armor, and damage resistance, and large claws and large bite. Play the Healer profession. Buy ranks in healer base lists, devote all the rest of your DP into ranks you can into Body development, Stunned Maneuver, and Claws.

You've now created a 9' tall wolverine (ne x-men). If subconcious spells auto cast, and take no activity, this troll can just wade into combat.. .almost impossible to stun, hard to hurt, inflicting lots of damage, and even if you somehow hurt them, they heal it back the next round when a subconcious spell goes off.

By following the core rules, where "s" spells take activity and don't overcast, that monster is impossible, or at least, they would be spending at least 75% action every round an "s" spell was triggered, leaving them not enough activity left to make attacks. (Give them "Haste" with a duration and it might get really scary.)

Layering on options like the ESF bunch, and fast instants bring creations like that back into scope. . .not a bad thing, but certainly a different kind of game at a higher power plane.

[RandalThor]

I think the big problem with learning/knowing something but being unable to do it is that you learn something by doing it. I learned math by doing it. I learned to shoot a rifle by shooting it. I learned an RPG by playing it. Now, all the really complicated actions of the above examples can be difficult, but I can attempt them.

If you can learn something it means that you can do it (maybe not successfully every time......).

If you learn about something, like say, you read about how a potter makes a cool vase, then it is more a Lore skill than an action skill. You can try to do it, but you will be taking some heafty negatives.

As for the subconscious spells, I have always allowed the caster to determine if they cast it. Having their subcoscious do it without their permission is an interesting idea though...................

[Marc R]

I think it's more akin to weightlifting.

Like, you learn to bench press properly, you have the skill.

Now, you can bench 100# and do reps, and you suspect you can bench 150# once, but even though you know in concept how to bench 200# you suspect the end result would be injury of some sort. . . .ESF penalties for overcasting seem to fit that logic well. . .so at 1st level you have the concept of a fireball clear in your head, but you suspect you'll pull a muscle (spell failure) if you try it.

[Warl]

this is why my house rule magic system has Spell lists and skills rather than as a learned list. Your skill and the level of the spell determine your ability to cast and the risks you take in casting it.

[Fornitus]

 Hadnt heard of the Troll version. We sometimes run an "Eternal Warrior" class. Same idea but with a human paladin or something. Just switch out the spells. But our version still requires the PC or NPC to go down with the crit for a round or so before getting back up. And after the second time they get up, nobody stops until just goo remains.
 
 But if the 1st lvl PC only has Fireball "theory" learned not the actual spell, that puts a compleately diferent perspective on spell casting. Almost alows minor spell creation on the fly, with some gawd awful negatives, but a high lvl NPC could try it in a jam with their LVL bonus and such........