Topic: Demons in Rolemaster

[buddha]

the HARP group I GM had a little run in with a demon during our last session and I used a more or less generic demon with the demonic abilities in M:afg.

After the session I talked a bit with one of my players, an old RM fan like myself. And we could not remember any such generic demon abilities like Demon Fear or Soul Burn shared by all demons. I only played RM2, and with all the companions and C&T book I cannot remember any such powers shared by all demons. My friend also played a bit of RMSS when it first hit hit shelves of the gamestores here in norway, and he's the one that brought it up. He could not remember demons being such nasty monsters back in his days of RM gaming, nor could he remember ever seeing any rules stating that all demons had powers like Cause Fear.

So have we forgotten how nasty even puny demons were in RM, or are the demons with their powers as described in M:afg simply more badass?

[Arioch]

In RM demons are nasty, even without the special abilities of HARP! 

[buddha]

Sure they are nasty buggers, but stuff like cause fear or terror can leave the unfortunate fool who makes his RR have to face the demon alone.

[Ecthelion]

So have we forgotten how nasty even puny demons were in RM, or are the demons with their powers as described in M:afg simply more badass?

The Class I demons in RM are IMO indeed not very powerful. I don't have the experience with demons in HARP, but from what you write above, even the lower-level demons have some generic powers that make them quite nasty. In RM, IIRC, demons have more individual powers instead of powers shared by all demons, and those with special abilities are normally the more high-level ones. I don't think this is better or worse than how it's done in HARP, it's just different.

[Arioch]

Most of the high-level demons in RM cause Fear, IIRC (Demons of Might surely do), many of them have spell-like abilities or access to evil spell lists and all demons are immune to whatever the GM wants.
OTHO low-level Pale Demons have no special ability and can be fought even by low level parties.

[buddha]

OTHO low-level Pale Demons have no special ability and can be fought even by low level parties.

Yup.
That was the impression I had from my time as a RM GM. They were decent fighters, but no worse than fighting big orcs. In fact I'd rather meet a pale I or II demon than an angry troll.

In HARP this is not the case. Demons mean trouble, smell bad and are best left alone.

[Fidoric]

That fits rather well the definition of a demon, no ?

[Ecthelion]

That fits rather well the definition of a demon, no ?

Well, what is the definition of a demon then? According to Wikipedia it could be a supernatural evil being. That does not mean that they all have to have generic powerful abilities. Both, the RM and the HARP interpretation, IMO have their merits.

[Fidoric]

I completely agree with you.
RM demons have their diversity whereas Harp demons, though having more in common, have a dangerous feeling about them that I like particularly. As a GM, I like to have monsters that the PC fear. AS a player, that's another story entirely.
Perhaps HARP demons will be even better with the upcoming "Something wicked" ? I use the rules in HB #6 (not sure of the number) about spirits to simulate demon possession and thongs like that. Those insidious attacks help me better define my demons.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

RM demons also have the "Pales" and "Beyond the Pale" designations. HARP demons, on the other hand, are not organized in that manner at all.

[buddha]

I completely agree with you.
RM demons have their diversity whereas Harp demons, though having more in common, have a dangerous feeling about them that I like particularly. As a GM, I like to have monsters that the PC fear. AS a player, that's another story entirely.

With all HARP demons having the Soul Burn power I guess they fit more with the fallen angel variant of demons. RM demons on the other hand fit more with the creature of chaos variant.

But I must say I do like the HARP take on demons. It certainly makes the players fear even the demons of the weaker types.

RM demons also have the "Pales" and "Beyond the Pale" designations. HARP demons, on the other hand, are not organized in that manner at all.

That might be so. but then again not all RM demons are from the pales even though most are given a pale number for comparison (at least this is how I remember it from RM2). And the HARP demons are typed I to VII so I guess it's pretty much the same thing. Classification of demons are setting specific so I won't give that much weight to the different wording. When looking at demons and undead in RM and HARP it's easy to see that it's the same thoughts behind them.

And since HARP and RM go so well together its no big problem to tweak the stats a bit and use monsters from on in the other.  Which basically means that one day I will introduce the Black Reavers into my HARP setting.

[Fornitus]

 Just started the background for a Demonoligist/Summoner PC. I am GM. She will be alowed Elemental Summons, Demonic Summons, and Spirit Summons as generic types of "Deamons". Even though the Spirit Summons is included, She will have no acess to Undead creation or controll. Eliminates the Unlife Taint problem that gets most evil PC's. Also, no acess to anykind of Animal Summining or Calling.
 IMHO this gives a wide variety of types of creatures to "call forth" with many different drawbacks and benifits. Also will use Black Hel deamons and others I find as sub-demon groups with specific summoning requirements.
 Sounds like HARP may have some Deamon types of intrest, thanks.

[markc]

 I would have to say that no matter what system I GM I generally use the D&D (1.0) deamon's and devil's. The concept just seams to work in my cosmos and mythology. For some reason I just could never get my creative mind around deamon's/devil's and pales. I know the expression "beyond the pale" and that should have some game meaning but to me it just does not.
 I am not sure but is the concept of "pales" British in nature? Where as the rings of hell etc. are from Christanity?

MDC 

[buddha]

I am not sure but is the concept of "pales" British in nature? Where as the rings of hell etc. are from Christanity?

pale
Pronunciation: \ˈpāl\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French pel, pal stake, from Latin palus ? more at pole
Date:12th century
1 archaic : palisade, paling
2 a: one of the stakes of a palisade b: picket
3 a: a space or field having bounds : enclosure b: a territory or district within certain bounds or under a particular jurisdiction
4: an area or the limits within which one is privileged or protected (as from censure)


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What the good people of ICE thought when they decided that pales were a nice way to classify demons I have no idea of.

The nine circles of hell is if I'm not mistaking an invention of Dante, and does not come from the teachings of the church. But being an illustration of the christian hell it takes into account the seven deadly sins and other christian concepts. This in my mind makes it a bad fit for a fantasy setting unless you also bring christianity into the setting.

For example the first circle, Limbo, is reserved for the ones who did not know Christ. For example newborn babies who died before being baptized.

There is also one circle for the gluttonous, which means that the god or gods must look upon gluttony as a sin. In roman times the same guy who in christianity would go to hell, would probably be invited to a big party at Bacchus' place.

And the circle for the lustful, no use for that in many a fantasy setting where the gods have walked among the mortals and had a good time in the hay.

Off course, depending on the setting, the circles of hell and the demons/devils that comes with it could work like a charm, but in my campaigns the pales fit much better. Then again, it could just be that I just create my settings in such a way that I can use the RM demons with their pales.

[Fornitus]

 Just wondering...
How dose one bind a demon into an item? In RM.
Found a fue things talking about it but not a specific spell ie..
 Bind Demon I-inclued with Work/Embed/ect binds a demon into an item.

I see in Alchemist where an intelengence is "created", but not where a preexisting being can be bound into something.

Rituals will be used heavily in upcoming scenario.

Thanks for the help

[buddha]

Just wondering...
How dose one bind a demon into an item? In RM.
Found a fue things talking about it but not a specific spell ie..
 Bind Demon I-inclued with Work/Embed/ect binds a demon into an item.

Construct companion has a few spells meant to bind demons into constructs. I dunno what effect you can expect if those spells are used to bind a demon into a sword or a normal armor.

But check out the spells in Construct companion, it might be just what you are looking for.

[mocking bird]

I have read the term 'beyond the pale' before.  It is a little archaic but in general it means beyond normal behavior or normal understanding.  Farther out of the pales, esoteric markings kind of, the nastier you get.

For circles of hell I don't think it was just Dante's invention but rather interpretation as having different levels of heaven or hell is not solely a Christian ideal.  Judaism has different levels of Heaven for example.

Echoes of Heaven setting does have the seven demons of the mortal sins if you are curiuos.  In the Bestiary - HARP or RM stats.

For demonic binding, the Shadow World module 'Demons of the Burning Night' goes into it a little but isn't very specific on things.

[yammahoper]

Greeks had three levels in Hades.  No, nothing new under the sun here.

lynn

[Fornitus]

 Deamons of Burning Night is where I'm getting the Black Hel deamons.
Dont have Construct Comp. Maybe I missed it somewhere.

[markc]

 IMO this would be a great addition to the products we would like to see and I think someone has allready added it to the list. IMO the problem is how can it be made a unique product that still has common ground for the Harp, RM crowd. By this I mean in almost all products you have to have some common ground and then add new things and ideas to it. If the info is to far out people will not pick it up and enjoy it. Also if it is to close a copy of an exzisting work people will not buy it.

MDC