Author Topic: Combat Companion  (Read 25092 times)

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Offline Gladius

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2008, 09:42:21 PM »
I just downloaded the guide a couple of days ago.  I have to say I'm very pleased.  My group probably won't use the armor by the piece rules yet since we like the full charts of Arms Law--but everyone like the idea.

The combat style section is very good. My players are drooling over the possibilities. I do have a question about how the universal style option--"additional attack" stacks with 1) the melee weapon option--shield bash, 2) how it stacks with the optional maneuvers 3) how it stacks with character law's adrenal speed

All in all an excellent product. Keep up the great work.
Here's to hoping Harp and Rm merge into one great game.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2008, 06:20:41 AM »
The Additional Attack gives the character one more attack (i.e. roll) for every 10 ranks in the style, but also giving a -20 modifier to all attacks in a round for each attack beyond the first. This -20 to the OB is applied first thing, before any modifiers from specific maneuvers would be applied.

So, if you  also had Shield Bash (will presume no Shield Training),  and you declared that you were using your Additional Attack and your Shield Bash, then you would have 2 attacks at -20 to each and the Shield Bash, which would use 1/2 of your style OB (after the -20 from the Additional Attack), and another -20 for it being your off-hand. Please note that the "1/2 OB" for the shield bash is determined AFTER making adjustments for any specific maneuvers, but before the -20 offhand penalty is applied.

Thus, if you have an OB of 100 (and more than 10 ranks in the style), and you declare 2 attacks and a shield bash, your OBs would be 80 for each of the 2 attacks (before any adjustment for any specific maneuvers) and 20 for the shield bash (80/2=40 -20 (offhand) = 20). If you declared that your attacks were going to put 20 points into DB, then Your OBs would be 60 for each attack, and 10 for the shield bash.

How Additional Attacks interacts with Additional Attacks is slightly more problematic. The modifiers from the specific maneuvers are intended to be for the whole round. Therefore, if you have/use the Additional Attack, the extra attacks are going to have to be the same specific maneuver for all of the attacks.

The only way that different specific maneuvers should be allowed is IF those maneuvers had the same DB modifiers across the board.

For example, using the same situation as before (2 attacks and a shield bash). Our first attack is a Basic Swing, and our guy is still parrying 20 points into DB. His second attack can be another Basic Swing, or is could be a Riposte (with an OB mod of -20) -- or a Block, Defensive Block, or Defensive Strike (with their other adjustments made to match an adjustment of +20 ti DB -- the character does NOT get to set these adjustments, they are dictated by the first attack).

The point is that the second attack must have the same DB modifier as the first, and the second attack has to be legal for that specific maneuver (i.e. you cannot use 2  different maneuvers if one "requires" 100% activity), if it is different from the first.

Note:
If the additional attack includes an initiative modifier, then I would apply that modifier to the following round, since initiative had already been determined for this round.

Adrenal Speed -- This skill gives you extra activity percentage to use. That means that you could make another attack declaration  -- again -- the DB shift declaration would remain, and it would constrain your choices of actions, or this extra activity percentage could be used to allow use of one of the specific maneuvers that requires 100% activity, etc..



Note: It is important to remember that the Specific Maneuvers were designed so that only one would be used per round. On page 61 it tells you that no more than one specific maneuver may be used in a given round normally, and that the adjustments do NOT stack. This is why up above it says that the DB adjustments of the first have to be legal for the additional attacks as well. This way you aren't stacking the abilities of the specific maneuvers.

Personally, I would only allow the additional attacks to be used with a Basic Swing and nothing else, treating the Additional Attacks as if it were another type of Specific Maneuver (i.e. no more than one per round)....


Offline Gladius

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2008, 08:55:14 AM »
Thanks Rasyr for that detailed and thorough response. I have to say I'm impressed by how much time designers and ICE professionals spend on these boards and take time answer questions. I love RM's flexibility, but it's always nice to get feedback about handling certain situations.

Here's to hoping Harp and Rm merge into one great game.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2008, 08:56:22 AM »
 :-[   <--- me....




 ;D

Offline Alexander

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2008, 07:34:59 PM »
Where is the Feint Maneuver???? It appears in "Whip Fighter Style"

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2008, 07:34:21 AM »
It got removed during editing (will likely appear in a future Express Addition, along with one or two others)) and was apparently missed in the Whip Style.

Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2008, 11:53:25 PM »
After our initial game session using AbtP and Condensed Combat myself and my group have the following observations:

1. Everyone loves AbtP.  It's a lot more intuitive, though as GM I am going to have to clarify some gray areas about armor coverage on the arms and legs.  No biggie, the given locations just raise questions that need to be answered.

2. The group felt that criticals were more severe with the Condensed Combat tables (tends to happen when someone gets their clock cleaned).  Side-by-side comparison of the tables does not bear this out, however; if anything, the new tables are slightly more lenient than the old tables.

3. Must Parry is listed as a combat result in the text of CC but so far I have not found it in any of the new critical tables.  Is it supposed to be replaced by the Staggered result?

4. What about QU and missile penalties using AbtP?

The overall response was very positive and once I've quelled people's fears about the "killer" critical tables everything should be fine.

Thanks again to ICE for the product and their amazing support of it on these forums.


Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2008, 01:11:09 AM »
1) Cool... and if you want clarification on this end before you make your rulings as GM, just ask.  ;D

2)  ;D

3) Must Parry is not replaced, it just worked out that none of THESE tables contain such entries (expanded tables most likely will).

4) There are none, at least none that are separate -- the maneuver penalties apply equally to all MM and OB skills (melee AND missile) and against the BMR as described in Character Law, page 140.  That paragraph that says this on page 33 of Combat Companion (left column, about mid-way down, just above "Cost") should also say Qu DB as well (and treated exactly like the  mod to Qu DB is treated).

Note: the minimum penalty for Full Plate armor (when fitted) is a -20, as opposed to the -45 given in Arms Law.

Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2008, 07:58:47 AM »
1) Cool... and if you want clarification on this end before you make your rulings as GM, just ask.  ;D

Let me formulate some clear questions...

4) There are none, at least none that are separate -- the maneuver penalties apply equally to all MM and OB skills (melee AND missile) and against the BMR as described in Character Law, page 140.  That paragraph that says this on page 33 of Combat Companion (left column, about mid-way down, just above "Cost") should also say Qu DB as well (and treated exactly like the  mod to Qu DB is treated).

Thanks.  I was thinking that might be the case.


Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2008, 09:29:15 AM »
1) Cool... and if you want clarification on this end before you make your rulings as GM, just ask.  ;D

Let me formulate some clear questions...

4) There are none, at least none that are separate -- the maneuver penalties apply equally to all MM and OB skills (melee AND missile) and against the BMR as described in Character Law, page 140.  That paragraph that says this on page 33 of Combat Companion (left column, about mid-way down, just above "Cost") should also say Qu DB as well (and treated exactly like the  mod to Qu DB is treated).

Thanks.  I was thinking that might be the case.

Okay, I'm not sure how to ask this (regarding armor coverage) so maybe you could just explain the intent regarding how upper arms and upper legs are protected?  Or am I injecting too much detail by separating the upper from lower limbs?

Also, regarding the armor MM penalties, is it just to keep things simple that the penalties apply to everything?  My group will definitely ask why leg armor affects their bow shots so I better have an answer.  You know how players are...:cry2:


Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2008, 11:08:31 AM »
Too much detail  :D -- we are basically trying to keep things simple, while still allowing for customization.

That is what was applied to the penalties as well -- keep things simple. If you want to be more specific, that is quite alright.

But then again, you could also point out that the minimum penalty for wearing a specific full suit of armor is often less than the equivalent adjustment using the normal armor rules

The following Table shows the ATs, thier missile penalties, their minimum maneuver penalties, the equivalent AR (from Combat Companion), and their minimum maneuver penalties -- the ARs are pulled from the table on page 37, and the minimum maneuver penalties are determined by the items of armor listed on that table.

[tabular type=1]
[row] [head]
Armor Type
[head]
Missile Penalty
[/head] [head]
Minimum Maneuver  Penalty
[/head] [head]
Armor Rating (CC pg.37)
[/head] [head]
Minimum Maneuver Penalty
[/head] [/row]
[row] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
40
[/data] [data]
-45
[/data] [data]
10 (25)
[/data][data]
-20
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
19
[/data] [data]
30
[/data] [data]
-35
[/data] [data]
9 (12)
[/data] [data]
-13
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
18
[/data] [data]
10
[/data] [data]
-20
[/data] [data]
10 (9)
[/data] [data]
-10
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
17
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [data]
10 (2)
[/data] [data]
-6
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
16
[/data] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
-25
[/data] [data]
8 (19)
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
15
[/data] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
-25
[/data] [data]
8 (19)
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
14
[/data] [data]
10
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [data]
8 (10)
[/data] [data]
-9
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
13
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
-10
[/data] [data]
8 (4)
[/data]  [data]
-6
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
12
[/data] [data]
30
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [data]
7 (15)
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
11
[/data] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [data]
6 (15)
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
10
[/data] [data]
10
[/data] [data]
-10
[/data] [data]
4 (7)
[/data]  [data]
-3
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
9
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
-5
[/data] [data]
4 (2)
[/data]  [data]
-2
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
8
[/data] [data]
15
[/data] [data]
-15
[/data] [data]
5 (6)
[/data]  [data]
-6
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
7
[/data] [data]
15
[/data] [data]
-10
[/data] [data]
5 (4)
[/data]  [data]
-4
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
6
[/data] [data]
5
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
3 (5)
[/data]  [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
5
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
3 (2)
[/data]  [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
4
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
3 (10)
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
3
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
2 (10)
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
2
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
1 (5)
[/data]  [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[row] [data]
1
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
0
[/data] [data]
1 (2)
[/data]  [data]
0
[/data] [/row]
[/tabular]

As you can see, if the player were wearing the equivalent of the AT armor, in most cases the minimum maneuver penalty is less than either of the mods listed for the regular AT.

Just let them know that it is done that way to keep things simple. But don't forget that the wearing of armor is a draining experience, as the weight and restriction of movement do take their toll, even on actions where you might not immediately think that they apply, and giving a single modifier is a simple way of covering that.

If you want to use more detail, then you could use the mods from pauldrons, bracers and gauntlets. If the character is wearing a shirt (as opposed to a cuirass), then apply the same mod from pauldrons. And if doing this, then you should use ONLY the Maximum Mods, and not allow the maneuver in armor skill to reduce the penalty.

This would give the AT20 equivalent -- AR 10 (25) -- a missile penalty of -30 and then so forth...



Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2008, 12:15:40 PM »
Wow, you sure know how to answer a question.  And that's a purty table you made.

I was thinking along the same lines regarding the penalties--and I have no problem with saying, "because I said so," to my players--but I wanted to cover all the bases (I say I'm thorough, others call me anal--tomato, tomahto, whatever).  And I had noticed as well that the AbtP penalties were less than the AL armor types, which helped when converting their maneuvering in armor skill ranks.

Thanks again for your help.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2008, 12:19:53 PM »
Quote
And I had noticed as well that the AbtP penalties were less than the AL armor types, which helped when converting their maneuvering in armor skill ranks.

Also notice that the single skill (if using the AbtP system) uses the standard progression as well (5/2/1/0.5) rather than the +5 per rank that is given in the core rules.


Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2008, 01:21:29 PM »
Yep, I saw that.  And forgot to revise those formulas last night when changing everyone's character files to show "MM in AbtP" in the skill list.  I still have to add AbtP to the equipment and combat sheets anyway so I'll do it then.


Offline Gladius

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2008, 09:27:07 AM »
When we start our new campain at the end of the summer we will be using the new AR rules in the companion.  Any chance that an express additions might have expanded crit. tables? :) 
Here's to hoping Harp and Rm merge into one great game.

Offline R?che

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2008, 11:53:35 AM »
Quick question, on pg 58 it lists Defense Ward costing 4 pts.  However, on pg 73, under Sword & Dagger style it list the cost as 2 pts?  Should it be the 4 pts?

Thx

~T

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2008, 12:07:37 PM »
yes 4 pts, and the style total should be 15.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2008, 11:59:20 AM »
Hi,

in CC I was expecting a locational system for armor and injuries.

What I've seen is a more complicated method to crunch ATs from 20 to 10.

The new tables seems to have all the quirks of the old tables, and armor location is not handled at all.
In practice if I don arms and legs armor what I get is a little DB...
I can't mix armor, say plate over chain over padding or simply chain over padding.
The armor value is given by the cuirass (breastplate), like the standard AT.

It was more simple to give various materials and armor pieces an AT, say from 1-10, and than give the possibility of mixing them.
With this you could use the some table from AL.

Three categories of materials can be made, flexible, semi-flexible and rigid. Flexible armor can be donned under semi-flexible and rigid. Semi-flexible can go under rigid. Rigid can't go anywhere.
Only one layer of each can be donned.


Offline twh

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2008, 12:24:42 PM »
Hi,

in CC I was expecting a locational system for armor and injuries.

What I've seen is a more complicated method to crunch ATs from 20 to 10.

The new tables seems to have all the quirks of the old tables, and armor location is not handled at all.
In practice if I don arms and legs armor what I get is a little DB...
I can't mix armor, say plate over chain over padding or simply chain over padding.
The armor value is given by the cuirass (breastplate), like the standard AT.

It was more simple to give various materials and armor pieces an AT, say from 1-10, and than give the possibility of mixing them.
With this you could use the some table from AL.

Three categories of materials can be made, flexible, semi-flexible and rigid. Flexible armor can be donned under semi-flexible and rigid. Semi-flexible can go under rigid. Rigid can't go anywhere.
Only one layer of each can be donned.

We must be reading different books.  AbtP breaks down the inflexible Armor Types in AL so that you can mix and match individual pieces.  The effects of armor on injuries to a given location is determined by Critical results, same as before.  The note on CC page 33 specifically states you can layer armor, with the DB bonuses and MM penalties being cumulative.

Yes, it's a little more complicated--a little.  But the increased flexibility is, IMO, definitely worth it.


Offline PiXeL01

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Re: Combat Companion
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2008, 01:06:57 PM »
I was wondering when does the hardbounds start to ship (if they havent already) :D
PiXeL01 - RM2/RMC Fanboy

I think violence in games only causes violence in real life if the person in question has an insufficient mental capacity to deal with the real world in the first place. But, that's more the fault of poor genetics and poorer parenting than it is the fault of a videogame