Topic: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?

[pastaav]

There are plenty of books with smaller audiences and better art. Core Laws is a platinum seller. Assuming $2 from each copy went to art, that's an art budget of at least $2000. I've done more with less.

The interesting question if those other books ever reached break-even or if they are labours of love that are sold at a loss.

I think a very common case is that small scale authors/publishers does not spare any expenses to get the book as good as it gets. Very few authors of fiction can live on their trade and Roleplaying books takes magitudes of more work. Small audience and paying the cost it takes to match the production level of industry giants like D&D doesn't really mix.

Secondly...that the books now are platium sellers is a fact in hindsight, but how could Ironcrown possibly know this when they ordered the art? The idea that Ironcrown would have any large pile of cash lying around to pay for arts to upcoming books is rediculous.

Thirdly...if the fans have cash to spare. Are not those better spent on more books for the gaming group so we quicker reach the Mithral best seller class?

[jdale]

It's not (only) about paying more for art.
Look at the layout here.
https://imgur.com/a/14hOu4p
This is a random page, literally the first page I flipped to from the last pdf I had open.
See how the shape of the art has been incorporated into the column layout of the page? See how background textures have been used? See how there is a shadow from the dwarf which spills over into the page? This all gives it life and visual appeal. It's basic stuff at this point. Nothing to do with budget.

I don't love the background texture, it looks kind of cool at the expense of readability. Similarly with wrapping text around images. Text is full justified for readability. I don't think that adds anything. It's dynamic in the sense that it disrupts the text layout, but that's also its weakness.

[Mordenkainen]

Anyway I apologise to those who worked hard on these books. I know that they all did their best, and I'm happy with the substance of the new edition. Just not the presentation. I stand by my opinion that no-one in the team has real credibility in art direction/layout, and that this hurt the final product. In keeping with its old school heritage, Rolemaster people seem just not visually oriented.
I'll just add that RMSS is an example of good layout (now dated, but the style was fine at the time) with low-budget art. The art sometimes let the page down, but everything flowed well and was clearly presented.

[Cory Magel]

I'll just add that RMSS is an example of good layout (now dated, but the style was fine at the time) with low-budget art.

But you're comparing a company with full time employees with a better budget. Just like I suspect the page you used as an example was even bigger company with an even bigger budget.

[Mordenkainen]

I'll just add that RMSS is an example of good layout (now dated, but the style was fine at the time) with low-budget art.

But you're comparing a company with full time employees with a better budget. Just like I suspect the page you used as an example was even bigger company with an even bigger budget.

The example I gave was from the Talisman Adventures RPG from Pegasus Spiele. Yes, a bigger company with a bigger budget. But we have excellent software these days, why can't an individual working from home lay out a good-looking book? Is is just that the time involved to do each page, for example with text often wrapped around art, was not available to the ICE team? Is it that folk with the skills charge an arm and a leg?

[Cory Magel]

The example I gave was from the Talisman Adventures RPG from Pegasus Spiele. Yes, a bigger company with a bigger budget. But we have excellent software these days, why can't an individual working from home lay out a good-looking book? Is is just that the time involved to do each page, for example with text often wrapped around art, was not available to the ICE team? Is it that folk with the skills charge an arm and a leg?

You say this like everyone with a digital camera should be able to become a professional photographer. They can't. You need to dedicate time to it. ICE can't do that. It's not their actual job, it's essentially a side hobby.  You're talking about someone who doesn't publish as their full time job using a program that they may not own.

[cdcooley]

It's not (only) about paying more for art.
Look at the layout here.
https://imgur.com/a/14hOu4p
This is a random page, literally the first page I flipped to from the last pdf I had open.
See how the shape of the art has been incorporated into the column layout of the page? See how background textures have been used? See how there is a shadow from the dwarf which spills over into the page? This all gives it life and visual appeal. It's basic stuff at this point. Nothing to do with budget.

I don't love the background texture, it looks kind of cool at the expense of readability. Similarly with wrapping text around images. Text is full justified for readability. I don't think that adds anything. It's dynamic in the sense that it disrupts the text layout, but that's also its weakness.

I agree. A book formatted that way may look pretty and have an initial appeal, but for me it's extremely hard to read and would be horrible as a reference. Accessibility for people with differing vision and perception issues is important.

The text formatting used to structure the page loses much of its effectiveness when combined with text being restructured purely for artistic purposes. The reduced (and variable) contrast created by the background is harder for me to read. And the overall visual clutter of the outer border makes it hard for me to focus on the text.

To me the layout of the RMU books is far superior to that example page.

[rdanhenry]

Just to be clear, the kind of textured-background, color-heavy design was created specifically to make it hard to scan. It may now be copied without thought for its origin, but it's fundamentally a copy-protection measure.

[pawsplay]

The 'problem' is pretty obvious. ICE isn't in a position to be paying higher end artists. Period.

There are plenty of books with smaller audiences and better art. Core Laws is a platinum seller. Assuming $2 from each copy went to art, that's an art budget of at least $2000. I've done more with less.

Show us what you've published, please?

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

[pastaav]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

[pawsplay]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

[Merkir]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?

[Cory Magel]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?

Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?

[pastaav]

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?

Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?

He used stock art so the cost for the art was most likely neglible. Obviously making a profit on below 50 sales suggest he is working basically for free, probably due to motivations I mentioned earlier in the thread. Beats me if there is a point with continuing this part of the discussion.

Interesting observations:
* On Drivethrough the only real interaction from a purchaser for pawsplay's work is somebody that is complaining about the layout/art and wants a print friendly version
* The assertion that "better" layout and stock art gives lots of sales is not backed by the number of sales for pawsplay's work.

At the end of the day we have no clue about how many that prefer a traditional layout that saves ink if you print selected pages and how many that need more D&D style layout if they should consider to purchase a product. I think easy to read and uses little ink is high priority for many, but that better cover would have been a good idea.

[pawsplay]

Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?

The writing credits are listed right there. Eric Lofgren and James Denton have done Magic cards. The cover to Before the Empire is stock art; I've hired him for custom pieces in other books before. The cover to Ex Cyclopedia is a piece of stock art by Dean Spencer. I could never hire Patricia again because not long after, she became a big shot and did some concept art for Hollywood. Storn Cook did some internal illustrations for Do Not Approach.

I paid them money. Nobody works for exposure.

Looking back, the Eliminator lost me a little bit of money. But I do own the the rights to the cover image. So I'll probably use that again at some point.

[pawsplay]

He used stock art so the cost for the art was most likely neglible.

As I said, I use a combination. Do Not Approach has a custom cover and has made hundreds of dollars. The cost for art for Yokai Races was, indeed, basically negligible, and has a very nice profit margin. Conquest of the Universe has a custom cover, and while I still haven't brought it to print yet, the PDF version has made thousands of dollars.

I've also done quite a bit of freelance work. Take a look at Boricubos: The Lost Isles by Legendary Games, which I did some bits for. Or look at the Aethera Campaign setting. Or any of their other books. I don't think there's a Platinum seller in the lot.

Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.

That's what other people's books look like.

[MisterK]

Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion about apples and oranges, but I have to second that. Fabula Ultima is a great book, with very nice art and a layout I find quite conducive to reading.
It also happens to be a (personal opinion again, obviously) quite interesting RPG, which I believe is a great part of the appeal. But it's one thing to be great, and another thing to be accessible and make the greatness be obvious. FU, in my opinion, does that : the book art and layout makes it easy to grasp the core of what makes it interesting.

Now compare it with RMU and see where the differences are. It does not explain the full difference in popularity, but it probably does explain part of it.

I must admit that the last RM book I could read without wondering why it took so long to get to the freaking point was probably the original ChL&CL. RM2 suffered from a critical lack of editorial and quality control, and from RMSS onwards, the core of the rules and the design intention were buried in meandering prose. Personal opinion here, but the first commandment should be "get to the point"; the second should be "provide an example"; and the third should be "provide *technical* design information" (instead of an essay on the relative values of historical and literary source material, which can easily be omitted or moved to the appendices).

Layout and artwork is the icing on the cake.

[Cory Magel]

Merkir's question went completely unanswered and mine mostly unanswered. So I guess we still don't know if we're comparing apples to apples or not.

Nobody works for exposure.

They, mostly, shouldn't, but some people do.

[pastaav]

Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion about apples and oranges, but I have to second that. Fabula Ultima is a great book, with very nice art and a layout I find quite conducive to reading.
It also happens to be a (personal opinion again, obviously) quite interesting RPG, which I believe is a great part of the appeal. But it's one thing to be great, and another thing to be accessible and make the greatness be obvious. FU, in my opinion, does that : the book art and layout makes it easy to grasp the core of what makes it interesting.

Now compare it with RMU and see where the differences are. It does not explain the full difference in popularity, but it probably does explain part of it.

I must admit that the last RM book I could read without wondering why it took so long to get to the freaking point was probably the original ChL&CL. RM2 suffered from a critical lack of editorial and quality control, and from RMSS onwards, the core of the rules and the design intention were buried in meandering prose. Personal opinion here, but the first commandment should be "get to the point"; the second should be "provide an example"; and the third should be "provide *technical* design information" (instead of an essay on the relative values of historical and literary source material, which can easily be omitted or moved to the appendices).

Layout and artwork is the icing on the cake.

Fabula Ultima won product of the year 2023 on Ennies etc. The art and layout might be part of winning the awards, but it is also interesting for our current discussion to note that it is not awailable as Print on Demand product and according to the comments it was not in print for parts of last year.

Let me also quote from their homepage

Fabula Ultima has won a Gold for Best Game and a Silver for Product of the Year at the ENNIE Awards.

Well, we’ve told you a thousand times how this story began. The enormous work that went into it. The striving for everything to come out the best it could. The endless research.

Today, we reached a place we never dreamed of reaching. And we can’t help but be grateful!

Grateful to Emanuele for entrusting us with their little creation, thanks to the whole team of wonderful people who worked with us, and thanks to all of you, the amazing NEED GAMES! and Fabula Ultima community.

It sounds very much like this started as a one-man project with no concerns about devoted time to make the product perfect. How much money that was devoted to arts it hard to tell if the guy who did it wanted to make it perfect...but it is worth to note they even have a soundtrack for the game!

If we turn out attention NEED GAMES themselves this is italian company with like 20 employee that seems to have purchased license to everything from Warhammer to Bladerunner. I have not done any real research, but it sounds similar to the german company previously mentioned. You really need to stretch definitions in rediculous ways if you want call this an indie developer.

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure I understand the point being made. Setting aside whether a small Italian board game company is an indie developer, Legendary Games started with like four people, and I'm just one person plus freelancers. So, pick whatever size operation you think is the best comparison to Iron Crown Enterprises.