Author Topic: New Player Perspectives  (Read 2321 times)

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Offline Sable Wyvern

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New Player Perspectives
« on: July 19, 2018, 07:49:12 PM »
11 sessions into my RMSS campaign, I asked for some feedback from my players. The responses were interesting. Note that the PCs started at level four, so there was no period of extremely limited competence to struggle through.

Player A Actually has some RM experience, although not a great deal. Plenty of general experience, mainly Shadowrun and D&D. Arcane Elementalist

* Having never really played a mage before (the Wizard in D&D4 doesn't count), I'm enjoying the prospect of the increasing power levels and the gradual increase in combat options (while they're still pretty limited).

* As far as the mechanics go - I've always liked RM's system. As Trav intimated: crippling injury is a turn of the dice away once you're into crit territory which is both interesting and frustrating all at the same time.

Player B - Some very limited previous D&D experience, I believe. Played a variety of games with our group over the past 10 years. Magent.

* Should be no secret that I've been loving it. Ebrahim is super fun to play, I feel confident enough to try lots of risky stuff but the risk still feels real as well.

* Mechanics wise I both love and dislike the crits for the same reason, the randomness.

* I was looking through the mentalist spell lists the other day and am still feeling pretty unenthusiastic about my base lists. I can see some good stuff on other professions base lists, but I can't see them becoming available any time soon. (I think the player was expecting semi spell-users to be something closer to a D&D style multiclass, as far as spell access goes. It doesn't seem to be a significant problem given he loves the character, but I plan to chat with him about this in person and find out exactly what he means.)

*Sneaking around the village both times was super fun, all the intel gathering spells are fun and feel like they give us more confidence to do stuff rather than sitting around deliberating. It's actually made me look around for any options for Ebrahim to learn dreaming or similar (although it doesn't fit super well with his profession).

* Level ups feel mostly incremental rather than bursty, although getting access to a few key spells like nightvision, long door etc. gives me a bit of enthusiasm, also the frequency is quite good.

* I prefer the fluid style of combat we've adopted over the very gamey style of hexes and grids.

Player C. A variety of previous experience. Mainly Earthdawn and D&D, I believe. Started with a Cleric, retired them and built a Fighter instead.

* Personally I’m having a lot of fun with Benedict. I’m enjoying the simplicity of playing a skilled straight-up fighter.

* I thought I’d miss the miniature board, but the RM system works well, and I always understood where I was and what was happening.

* Since I’m currently in the mood for a fast paced game, I’m really enjoying the dungeoneering ‘lets see what crazy **** is round the corner’ play style.


I don't make players pre-allocate their DP, but I don't let them spend DP on something unless they've actually had an opportunity to learn/practice/train. The following discussion relates to that.

Player B:I don't like the training mechanic. I understand it and it makes sense, but from a players perspective it just feels like I'm having options cut off simply for not stating a month in advance "I want to learn this skill". Eg: first aid. Maybe if we can credibly ret-con downtime training we can satisfy the need to have a credible access to the skill without forcing players to plan their level up so far in advance.

Player A: For the record - I don't have an issue with the training mechanic we have. Phil doesn't have an issue with us having a "When I have downtime I do x" statement which covers off the existing skills. Obtaining new ones... it's annoying that you can't just start learning one without some external catalyst - but that goes for real life too. (c:

Player C:  With regards to leveling up, I would prefer to just spend skill points as I like, rather than needing to plan everything out ahead of time, but it’s not a big deal.


I explained that, by RAW, you are meant to do your full spend a level in advance, which led to this:

Player B: So like, you prepare your level 9 spend as soon as you hit level 8? That would be super weird and frustrating, like, hey, check out how awesome you will be in the future but aren't right now!

* * *

I am most intrigued by the fact that the combat has been referred to as "fluid" and the recent dungeoneering as "fast paced". The latter was mainly mentioned in contrast to earlier sessions where there was a lot more plotting, planning and discussion, but it still flies in the face of the typical stereotypes of RM.

In any event, the game is definitely a success so far.

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2018, 09:22:17 PM »
Interesting to hear other perspectives on our favourite game.

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 02:30:30 AM »
11 sessions into my RMSS campaign, I asked for some feedback from my players. The responses were interesting. Note that the PCs started at level four, so there was no period of extremely limited competence to struggle through.

Player A Actually has some RM experience, although not a great deal. Plenty of general experience, mainly Shadowrun and D&D. Arcane Elementalist

* Having never really played a mage before (the Wizard in D&D4 doesn't count), I'm enjoying the prospect of the increasing power levels and the gradual increase in combat options (while they're still pretty limited).

* As far as the mechanics go - I've always liked RM's system. As Trav intimated: crippling injury is a turn of the dice away once you're into crit territory which is both interesting and frustrating all at the same time.

Player B - Some very limited previous D&D experience, I believe. Played a variety of games with our group over the past 10 years. Magent.

* Should be no secret that I've been loving it. Ebrahim is super fun to play, I feel confident enough to try lots of risky stuff but the risk still feels real as well.

* Mechanics wise I both love and dislike the crits for the same reason, the randomness.

* I was looking through the mentalist spell lists the other day and am still feeling pretty unenthusiastic about my base lists. I can see some good stuff on other professions base lists, but I can't see them becoming available any time soon. (I think the player was expecting semi spell-users to be something closer to a D&D style multiclass, as far as spell access goes. It doesn't seem to be a significant problem given he loves the character, but I plan to chat with him about this in person and find out exactly what he means.)

*Sneaking around the village both times was super fun, all the intel gathering spells are fun and feel like they give us more confidence to do stuff rather than sitting around deliberating. It's actually made me look around for any options for Ebrahim to learn dreaming or similar (although it doesn't fit super well with his profession).

* Level ups feel mostly incremental rather than bursty, although getting access to a few key spells like nightvision, long door etc. gives me a bit of enthusiasm, also the frequency is quite good.

* I prefer the fluid style of combat we've adopted over the very gamey style of hexes and grids.

Player C. A variety of previous experience. Mainly Earthdawn and D&D, I believe. Started with a Cleric, retired them and built a Fighter instead.

* Personally I’m having a lot of fun with Benedict. I’m enjoying the simplicity of playing a skilled straight-up fighter.

* I thought I’d miss the miniature board, but the RM system works well, and I always understood where I was and what was happening.

* Since I’m currently in the mood for a fast paced game, I’m really enjoying the dungeoneering ‘lets see what crazy **** is round the corner’ play style.


I don't make players pre-allocate their DP, but I don't let them spend DP on something unless they've actually had an opportunity to learn/practice/train. The following discussion relates to that.

Player B:I don't like the training mechanic. I understand it and it makes sense, but from a players perspective it just feels like I'm having options cut off simply for not stating a month in advance "I want to learn this skill". Eg: first aid. Maybe if we can credibly ret-con downtime training we can satisfy the need to have a credible access to the skill without forcing players to plan their level up so far in advance.

Player A: For the record - I don't have an issue with the training mechanic we have. Phil doesn't have an issue with us having a "When I have downtime I do x" statement which covers off the existing skills. Obtaining new ones... it's annoying that you can't just start learning one without some external catalyst - but that goes for real life too. (c:

Player C:  With regards to leveling up, I would prefer to just spend skill points as I like, rather than needing to plan everything out ahead of time, but it’s not a big deal.


I explained that, by RAW, you are meant to do your full spend a level in advance, which led to this:

Player B: So like, you prepare your level 9 spend as soon as you hit level 8? That would be super weird and frustrating, like, hey, check out how awesome you will be in the future but aren't right now!

* * *

I am most intrigued by the fact that the combat has been referred to as "fluid" and the recent dungeoneering as "fast paced". The latter was mainly mentioned in contrast to earlier sessions where there was a lot more plotting, planning and discussion, but it still flies in the face of the typical stereotypes of RM.

In any event, the game is definitely a success so far.
lots of positives there. well done GM.
its sometimes hard to cater for all ur players prefernces. in general i try to give my players input into rules adaptions/changes etc as i feel its imp for them to shape our game mechanics/make tweeks.

I like to tinker a lot with rules. combat and level progression are the two areas ive modified the most over the years.
for skill progression i allow 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, full level. so players spend 1/3 of total DPs at each increment and also get standard 1/2 level development (3 skill ranks in 2 diff skills). this works pretty well and gives the feel of fluid progression.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 07:18:37 AM »
That is a very cool post.  Thank you for the information.  That is great insight and great to get feedback from players with varying backgrounds.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 03:13:48 PM »
I've never been a big fan of the Magent's lists myself. I do wish RMSS had chosen some of the other interesting Mentalism semis as the core mentalism semi classes. RM2 had a lot of fun ones to choose from: Nightblade, Beastmaster, and Noble Warrior, to name just a few. (I guess the Noble Warrior got kind of reworked into the Armsmaster in Mentalism companion.) To my mind, a Nightblade, Beastmaster, or Knight is much more easily recognizable to new players than a Magent.

Yes, this is an old hobby horse I am on  :)
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 08:10:09 PM »
I've never been a big fan of the Magent's lists myself. I do wish RMSS had chosen some of the other interesting Mentalism semis as the core mentalism semi classes. RM2 had a lot of fun ones to choose from: Nightblade, Beastmaster, and Noble Warrior, to name just a few. (I guess the Noble Warrior got kind of reworked into the Armsmaster in Mentalism companion.) To my mind, a Nightblade, Beastmaster, or Knight is much more easily recognizable to new players than a Magent.

Yes, this is an old hobby horse I am on  :)

I find that a strange perspective -- the Magent is the Nightblade for RMSS.

The Magent's Poison Mastery is the Nightblade list with the blank slots filled in.

The Nightblad's Adrenal Focus is a bit of a strange list. Most of the offensive portions are replicated in the Magent's Assassination Mastery.

Phantom's Face and Disguise Mastery are very similar.

In place of Phantom Movements and Distractions, the Magent gets Gathering Secrets, Escapes and Misdirections. The latter are two are the two lists that player B likes the most. Cloaking is an extremely useful list for an assassin, and the teleport spells on Escapes are going to be able to ahieve many of the things that can be done with Phantom Movements.

While I can see why someone might prefer the Nightblade lists over the Magent lists for personal and subjective reasons, overall I can't see anything that makes the Nightblade lists stand out as superior, and I think, overall, the Magent lists are better.

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 09:10:53 PM »
For me it's a semantic thing - Nightblade sounds like an assassin.  Magent sounds like some sort of Mage (to me).  Gimme the name from RM2 & the lists from RMSS.  You've got the best of both worlds.

Nightblade ->--

p.s. I'm also a little biased  :P

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 09:15:29 PM »
Re: Adrenal Focus & Nightblades

When I played Nightblades (or make them up for my creative writting), I always make sure I heavy them up on Martial Arts because their MA cost in RM2 is cheaper then their Weapons Costs - 3/7 for MA & 3/9 for a Nightblade's first Weapon catagory.  Adrenal Focus adds to the Martial Arts capabilities of the Nightblade.

Nightblade ->-- (Now with a Black Belt In Assassination  ;) )

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 10:02:35 PM »
I've never been a big fan of the Magent's lists myself. I do wish RMSS had chosen some of the other interesting Mentalism semis as the core mentalism semi classes. RM2 had a lot of fun ones to choose from: Nightblade, Beastmaster, and Noble Warrior, to name just a few. (I guess the Noble Warrior got kind of reworked into the Armsmaster in Mentalism companion.) To my mind, a Nightblade, Beastmaster, or Knight is much more easily recognizable to new players than a Magent.

Yes, this is an old hobby horse I am on  :)

Totally agree regarding the names. I don't care how many times you spin it...Magent just sounds odd to the ear compared to Nightblade. I get the reasoning behind the name and all that. But that doesn't mean it sounds right (or feels right, frankly, for my games).
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2018, 07:25:59 AM »
For me it's a semantic thing - Nightblade sounds like an assassin.  Magent sounds like some sort of Mage (to me).  Gimme the name from RM2 & the lists from RMSS.
IIRC "Magent" is a mixture of "Magical" and "Agent". But I agree that the name sounds strange. Nevertheless I like the profession.

Offline jdale

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2018, 11:11:02 AM »
Nightblades have more and better options for moving around discretely. Magents have spells that remove the need to do so, e.g. study patsy, sensory marker, locate evidence. Personally, I dislike those spells for that reason. They might help speed up game flow (it takes a lot less GM and player time to cast study patsy than it does to actually shadow a target) but it still seems dissatisfying. Magent really doesn't have anything like Distractions or Phantom Movements, both lists I enjoy.

Very different professions with very different approaches to doing the same sort of thing. I don't think the magent is bad, certainly they can hold their own in terms of effectiveness, I just like the nightblade better.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 12:14:34 PM »
Like Nightblade42 (a relevant user name if ever there was one!) and IntoThatDarkness, my main criticism is semantic: The name Nightblade is instantly recognizable, even if you don't know exactly what all its spells are. Magent, on the other hand, has to be explained. And if you have to explain the name, then the name has failed in its primary purpose.

'Magent' is a cool abbreviation when you know what the class does, but doesn't help players who don't know what it is. So it might be better to spell it out more clearly: Mystic Agent or Mystical Agent. Also, perhaps because my group plays a more combat-oriented game, I'd prefer to have the more combat oriented stealth profession in the core, and the espionage/non-combat oriented profession as an expansion class.

In terms of the mechanics, I did like the old Nightblade Distractions list. Assassination Mastery is a good and powerful list though; I like that new one.

This is all of course just my 2 cents. I didn't mean to marginalize your opinion Sable; I just was expressing my own.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM »
This is all of course just my 2 cents. I didn't mean to marginalize your opinion Sable; I just was expressing my own.

You don't have to apologise for disagreeing with me. We weren't really even disagreeing, I was just a bit confused that you said the Magent lists are uninspiring while also talking up the Nightblade. I have a better understanding of your position now.

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 05:35:14 PM »
Like Nightblade42 (a relevant user name if ever there was one!)

How can you tell that Nightblade is my favourite RM2 profession?  ;D

Nightblade ->--

Offline Spectre771

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 05:49:09 AM »
Like Nightblade42 (a relevant user name if ever there was one!)

How can you tell that Nightblade is my favourite RM2 profession?  ;D

Nightblade ->--

Easily.  The 42 gives it away.  The Nightblade class is on the 4th page of characters and it is the 2nd profession listed.  Also, it's in RMC-I which was the 4th book published and the SECOND edition of RM.  A little "on-the-nose" don't ya think Nightblade?  Sheesh.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2018, 10:53:14 AM »
I just thought he was a Douglas Adams fan  ;)
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: New Player Perspectives
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2018, 07:29:04 PM »
Like Nightblade42 (a relevant user name if ever there was one!)

How can you tell that Nightblade is my favourite RM2 profession?  ;D

Nightblade ->--

Easily.  The 42 gives it away.  The Nightblade class is on the 4th page of characters and it is the 2nd profession listed.  Also, it's in RMC-I which was the 4th book published and the SECOND edition of RM.  A little "on-the-nose" don't ya think Nightblade?  Sheesh.

Wow.  Never realized that.  That's almost erie… ???

As Hurin noted, I'm a Douglas Adams fan, thats where the 42 comes from (the best joke in base 13!  ;D )

Nightblade ->--