Topic: Undead vs. High Rolls on Critical Tables

[Biviar]

Hi everyone,

I tried to find a post with this reference but found none.
Whenever the party is in combat, everybody is aiming for a high roll when you get a critical. I totally understand why most undead creatures cannot be neither stunned nor bleed (hppr). It is extremely frustrating though to get the 80s-90s area of a critical table against an undead to find out terrible damage against other creatures (e.g. 5 hppr, stunned for 6 rnds), but a tinny skeleton with 1 hp left will get no additional damage at all. Does anyone know if there is a rule (maybe optional) I’m not aware about or a previous post where this topic has already been discussed?

Thanks a lot.

[Malim]

Bring a cleric!

However.. I agree with you, I also feel that a good fighter has to grind through tons of hit points.. makes it feel like diablo game

[Spectre771]

In some of the games we've played (not all), we allow stun on certain undead, usually skeletons with physical mass, not the incorporeal ones.  We just attribute it to 'confusion' on the undead's part as to why this puny mortal was able to dish out so much damage.  Or even anger at the puny mortal for using a magic or holy weapon against it so it let's out a bellow rage as a challenge. 

It is a little difficult to swallow to dole out a high D- or E- crit and to get nothing in return because it's undead.

[Majyk]

A long time ago(RM2), We house ruled that whenever a result had absolutely no base HP damage, we would number and multiply the critical result by 2-5 depending on whom was GMing.
A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, D = 4, E =5

Generous GMs would award 5-30HPs using a multiple of 5. Cheapo jerks, like myself, would do so from 2-10!

Abuse as you will.

[Hurin]

Use crushing weapons. Their damage is usually more up-front hit point damage and broken bones, which will affect skeletons more.. and is even more appropriate in these circumstances.

[Biviar]

Thank you everyone for your comments. I was aiming for a logic option that ICE has put somewhere, some companion. It is just not logical that an 85 critical roll against a skeleton (or any cheap undead for that matter) with 1 hp remaining will do no effect.

Parties usually carry a cleric or a Paladin, and at least one character always carries a concussion weapon as his prime choise (currently a fighter carries a holy morningstar, deadly against undead), but when you deal with 15 of those enemies at the same time, the rest of the party also must intervene, and you want an 80s-90s critical rolls, which are not that common, to really count (not just for guy with the krush weapon).

We house ruled X hppr will imply 2X hp if the creature cannot bleed, X rounds stunned = 3X hp if it cannot be stunned. Not that much damage (I know, they are undead), but at least the critical means something.

Thanks again.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

It is just not logical that an 85 critical roll against a skeleton (or any cheap undead for that matter) with 1 hp remaining will do no effect.

Why wouldn't it be "logical"? Technically, a critical hit is a hit that does some "exceptional" damage because it hits a particularly "vulnerable" location of the hit creature. For a sentient being, that is. What's the "vulnerable" part of a heap of flesh or bones animated by magic?
As such, undead or, worse, constructs and golems are just creatures that are, by nature, pretty much immune to critical hits, that's all. That is the "logical" point of view.

[tbigness]

It is a critical hit which should do something to those not immune to criticals. One could be to limit mobility or OB due to shattered or broken foot, leg, arm, hand ect.... There is a myriad ways this could play out. Maybe not extra damage but something could arise for the good fortune of a high crit roll.

[Biviar]

Why wouldn't it be "logical"? Technically, a critical hit is a hit that does some "exceptional" damage because it hits a particularly "vulnerable" location of the hit creature. For a sentient being, that is. What's the "vulnerable" part of a heap of flesh or bones animated by magic?

I totally understand your point. Actually, it is a good explanation if a player complains.

I believe that with “logical” I was talking from the play system point of view and overall player experience. If a trained fighter is against a skeleton, most probably he will never go “for the liver”; he will rather aim for vulnerable parts that keep the skeleton standing and attacking (“Undead Lore” is a popular secondary skill among some of my players because of those situations). If you achieve critical damage in such a fight, we understand it is exceptional damage to that specific creature, thus an 85 with 5 hppr is not logical in terms of a character that knows undead vulnerable points.

You know what? Your comment just made me realize: what it is missing are critical tables specifically against undead/construct creatures. Access to that type of damage will require specific knowledge (secondary skill lore for that type of creature) and most probably specialized weapons. Sounds like a lot of work and increases complexity, but one usually doesn’t complain about complexity in Role Master.

Let me see if I can put something together and share with the community for comments and additional input.

Thanks a lot.

[Mordrig]

I have this hit location chart....

[Nightblade42]

You know what? Your comment just made me realize: what it is missing are critical tables specifically against undead/construct creatures. Access to that type of damage will require specific knowledge (secondary skill lore for that type of creature) and most probably specialized weapons. Sounds like a lot of work and increases complexity, but one usually doesn’t complain about complexity in Role Master.

Let me see if I can put something together and share with the community for comments and additional input.

Thanks a lot.

<WARNING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE ALERT>

If we start making creature specific critical tables, we're going to need a lot of critical tables.

<END OF DEVIL'S ADVOCACY>

But I see your point.  Slaying & Holy criticals sort of fit the bill here, but then you need an enchanted weapon or special circumstances to use these tables (e.g. holy water vs. undead).  Normal weapons don't give you this advantage.  And even still, those tables give Stun & Bleeding results.  You can houserule different results (as OLF suggested) - which might be the easiest solution.  Or just use crushing weapons against skeletons, as Hurin suggests.

Nightblade ->--

[dean10]

If you are using judgment, then look at the crit table column, and  apply the highest damage from any result that is for a lesser roll.  Another alternative is to use Large Creature table, non-open ended, which is extra damage anyway.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

If a trained fighter is against a skeleton, most probably he will never go “for the liver”; he will rather aim for vulnerable parts that keep the skeleton standing and attacking (“Undead Lore” is a popular secondary skill among some of my players because of those situations).

The critical tables are generic, though. It's not as if "head was hit" would make any sense against a slime, for instance, a creature for which being hit anywhere would be about the same anyway. The end point is that such creatures are supposed to be "special" in that normal weapons aren't effective against them and weapons especially designed to fight them are needed (holy weapons for undead, for instance), regardless of how skilled someone is. If most of your PCs have a high bonus in Undead lore, they should just know that and go out with holy weapons. :p

If you want to add into the equation knowledge of the creature, though, merely allow the PC to use its skill ranks (not the skill rank bonus; or (skill ranks / 2) or (skill ranks / 3) depending on how effective you want the knowledge to be) to modify the critical roll (though 66 should remain a natural roll).
For instance, if a PC has 15 ranks in Undead lore, he can add or substract up to 15 to his critical roll (or 8 or 5).
You may want to ask for a skill roll for the critical roll bonus to be effective but I'd go without in order not to add yet another roll. Leave skill rolls for informational needs.

[gog]

I totally understand your point. Actually, it is a good explanation if a player complains.

I believe that with “logical” I was talking from the play system point of view and overall player experience. If a trained fighter is against a skeleton, most probably he will never go “for the liver”; he will rather aim for vulnerable parts that keep the skeleton standing and attacking (“Undead Lore” is a popular secondary skill among some of my players because of those situations). If you achieve critical damage in such a fight, we understand it is exceptional damage to that specific creature, thus an 85 with 5 hppr is not logical in terms of a character that knows undead vulnerable points.

Depending on version, isn't this what the skill "Vital Points Lore" is for? Would need it for each type of Undead, to know the exact point to hit though.

[tbigness]

I would go with the Vital points on most humanoids and go with the Lores for other creature types to modify the Crit up or down. Makes sense as all the different "Demon, Devil, Undead, Animals are different and having knowledge of that kind would help with critically hitting it's vulnerable areas.

[Spectre771]

RM2 also has "Increase Critical" as a skill.  It has to be one of the later Companions, maybe Arms Companion.  No one has ever purchased it, but I'll take a look tonight.  My son is back from college and we'll be making a new level 1 PC for him to join on the weekend session.

[Turbs]

I for one like my undead to be terrifying.

that doodoo your pants feeling when you slam you spear stright through that zombies ribs into its heart.
High fives all round for what should be a killing blow only to realize, not only is that zombie still trying to eat you. it has now effectively disarmed you and is pulling itself closer along your spear.

[Nightblade42]

I for one like my undead to be terrifying.

that doodoo your pants feeling when you slam you spear stright through that zombies ribs into its heart.
High fives all round for what should be a killing blow only to realize, not only is that zombie still trying to eat you. it has now effectively disarmed you and is pulling itself closer along your spear.

Love it!

You're right.  Undead are magic monsters.  Therefor, it stands to reason that normal weapons would not do as much damage as weapons specifically designed to fight them.  Q.E.D.

Nightblade ->--

[Sable Wyvern]

I for one like my undead to be terrifying.

My players have yet to encounter undead in my current game. Only one of them has any significant experience with RM, and I do not believe he recalls that undead universally regenerate.

I left some hints in my background material, but I dare say that those who bothered to read it, wrote the relevant comments off as purple prose instead of literal warnings.

It should prove interesting when they actually encounter undead. And then encounter them again on the way back.

And not to mention the prevalence of Co drain from even relatively weak undead.

[Majyk]

In researching a few RMU items, I did come across where they do advise, allowing the “killing flavour text” to also apply to normally immune creatures.

As above, I was always loving describing how the vile undead beast just did not care one lick as to how many times their lungs were punctured!

 I did allow brain shots to kill - darn 70/80s Zombie Movie culture!