Topic: Consequences of Seers in a city

[Jengada]

I'm hoping to tap into the hive mind here. I have a city in my world that is sort of a Mecca for seers. The campaign has never gone there, but it's about to, and I'm fleshing out that city as a result. I'm trying to figure out ways in which having a slightly higher than normal number of seers in the community would affect things like crime, commerce, etc.
To frame it a bit more, I figure that in a city of 50,000 there would normally be about 30-80 seers, max. Even an appreciable number of Mentalists, of any profession, would affect life because they can get Presence (no PP!) and other mind-based detection spells. Based on the magic level in my world, the majority would be below 5th level, and the highest level of any seer in town would be around 15th. (I run RM2, but I figure version doesn't really matter here.)

[Majyk]

If worried about overkill, you can always have Mentalism users swear some kind of oath to a Master or belong to a Guild where they do not to use their powers unless tasked to do so.
Depending on regional culture, maybe a strict law is enforced with the branding or removal of visible extremities?

That or have them charge so high a fee to do so, that they are only used by the filthy rich or well-connected.



Then you can reason why petty crimes the Adventurers are tasked to solve are even available, if that is your concern.

[Jengada]

If worried about overkill, you can always have Mentalism users swear some kind of oath to a Master or belong to a Guild where they do not to use their powers unless tasked to do so.
Depending on regional culture, maybe a strict law is enforced with the branding or removal of visible extremities?

That or have them charge so high a fee to do so, that they are only used by the filthy rich or well-connected.



Then you can reason why petty crimes the Adventurers are tasked to solve are even available, if that is your concern.

I hadn't thought of a Guild for the seers - though I had thought of having a thieves' guild that basically extorts all the seers. The guild could give them a choice between joining or getting killed, then the thieves would have a serious edge.

I am somewhat concerned about having tasks available, but I'm more interested in figuring out how the overall flavor of the city might differ from other cities because of the seers. And the adventure I'm laying out actually will involve rival factions using seers in their feud.

[Spectre771]

You could have certain groups of seers wear dampening materials.  Magic absorbing or blocking, certainly materials that interfere with Mentalism.

Perhaps all business owners/traders must wear these devices to make barter more fair.

A guild is certainly a way to go, but make it more like a Legitimate Businessman's League.  A symbol is proudly displayed on their shop indicating that they are ethical sellers and will not use magic to influence trades and commerce.  Having their seal revoked is easily a death knell for the business as the customers now know that the seller is a deliberate fraud.  Knowing that someone is an ethical seller would increase business.

I'm not sure a higher number of seers would lower crime, but it would certainly raise the capture and conviction rate which is a pretty good deterrent to crime.  Yes you commit the crime, but you will suffer for it when a squad of seers gets on your trail.

[Jengada]

You could have certain groups of seers wear dampening materials.  Magic absorbing or blocking, certainly materials that interfere with Mentalism.

Perhaps all business owners/traders must wear these devices to make barter more fair.

A guild is certainly a way to go, but make it more like a Legitimate Businessman's League.  A symbol is proudly displayed on their shop indicating that they are ethical sellers and will not use magic to influence trades and commerce.  Having their seal revoked is easily a death knell for the business as the customers now know that the seller is a deliberate fraud.  Knowing that someone is an ethical seller would increase business.

I'm not sure a higher number of seers would lower crime, but it would certainly raise the capture and conviction rate which is a pretty good deterrent to crime.  Yes you commit the crime, but you will suffer for it when a squad of seers gets on your trail.

I like the Better Business Bureau idea. As for the crime, the law here is pretty harsh, so getting caught is enough to deter a lot of crime. The policy could be that seers can be used to identify a suspect with a vision, but that the seer's vision cannot be used as part of the evidence for conviction. That would mean the law enforcement people have to still collect physical evidence and in-person witnesses to make the accusation.

[jdale]

Definitely a market for anti-scrying, non-detection, etc. There are spells which will conceal you against divination and you have to expect some shady individuals providing those spells and items, which will allow thieves to operate. If you have regulation covering who is allowed to do business as a seer, people who have lost that permission may naturally migrate into this other role. Also, there will always be a class of minor crimes (e.g. shoplifting) which steal less than the cost of divination, so they won't be economical to prevent.

There is a substantial gray area where your divination on, for example, how to make one businessman successful may not be targeted offensively but someone else is going to suffer (or at least lose business). That will probably be legal, and as a result both businessmen will employ seers and anti-scrying precautions in order to advance their own careers. There might be rules about how directly one can target one's competition, but it's also possible that not having scrying protections is considered the equivalent of not closing your curtains, i.e. it's your own fault.

Privacy also extends to lots of non-business situations. Threats, religious rivalry, a spouse suspected of having an affair, etc.

If you have a legal system (and not just noble edict), you might have rules covering the role of seers, divination, mindreading, etc in court. E.g. you have a panel of three independent experts, who must disclose if they have any personal interest.

Seers are good for knowledge acquisition in general, you might also have more museums (all those artifacts with really interesting histories), an interest in archaeology (which could also mean tomb-robbery), etc.

[Jengada]

Definitely a market for anti-scrying, non-detection, etc. There are spells which will conceal you against divination and you have to expect some shady individuals providing those spells and items, which will allow thieves to operate.

What (RM2) list or spells conceal against divination? I know Misfeel X/Y/Z will help hide you, but do they work against Mind Store?
If a seer tries to look at something that happened at night, I assume they see darkness as they normally would - but what if they cast Nightvision on themself before the divination?
Maybe there's a Companion list that does this, but a spell that blocks a time and area from scrying would be a game-changer here.

[Voriig Kye]

My first tip would be to watch the movie Minority Report, or just check the plot in Wikipedia.
Having a bunch of seers as a well established part of the policing force is not the end of crime.

The criminals will know the limitations of those who come after them. Read the fine print of the spells, because the thieves will. What's the use of past visions if the offender was shapeshifted into someone else? You can avoid lying and still be counterproductive to a criminal investigation. I have a seer in my current group and she can't always find the answers she needs just by using her spells.

Also, as social issues go, why would you believe what the seer says? They would be the first officials to be bribed.
If there is an "internal affairs" department for the seers, they would be under suspicion from non-seers, government officials, and merchants.
On the issue of requiring physical evidence, I've seen some episodes of iZombie on Netflix and the issue is mentioned.

Besides special materials that would prevent the use of certain spells, some professions would end up specializing in countering the seer spells.
If you're using RM2, I'd recommend Companion I for the Nightblade spells, Companion II for Guarded Sight, Companion III for the Montebanc spells, Companion IV for Enchanting Law.

And whatever your ruleset, you must get the RMFRP Mentalism Companion. It has a very extensive treatment on illusions, scrying, and other stuff. Most of those rules are system independent (as long as it's RM since it requires RRs). We are using the scrying protection and piercing rules in our campaign, they really give an edge to seers while keeping them interesting.

[jdale]

RMFRP Mentalism Companion also has a Vision Guard base list for the seer which is all about protecting against divination. I'm less familiar with the RM2 lists, aside from the Nightblade that was just mentioned. Nightblade has Misfeel of various types, Nondetect, Unpresence, etc. I'm not sure if the RM2 spells that take advantage of Mind Store need the target mind to be "unshielded", but the RMSS Mentalist ones do specify that.

[Peter R]

Even without those companions RM2 has very simple rules for creating new spells and lists. A new 1st level spell literally takes just a matter of days to research. You could create a list of 1-10 spells that counter the most common Seer spells. You said that the most common levels were 5th or there abouts.

Someone would have researched this list in such a place just for the competitive advantage it initially gave.

You could have the idea of Seers having to provide a number of days scutage, or pay to be excused, to assist the city authorities. If they had to spend all day every day policing the city no Seer would ever go there as they would not get any peace.

Without any form of organising body the pricing of services could go haywire as well with low level magics being dirt cheap as people race to the bottom undercutting rivals to earn a buck and then prices ratcheted up as soon as you go over 5th level as these are obviously a cut above the average Seer.

[gog]

I like the Better Business Bureau idea. As for the crime, the law here is pretty harsh, so getting caught is enough to deter a lot of crime. The policy could be that seers can be used to identify a suspect with a vision, but that the seer's vision cannot be used as part of the evidence for conviction. That would mean the law enforcement people have to still collect physical evidence and in-person witnesses to make the accusation.

With this idea, I'd actually have multiple bodies that Seers can belong to, and have them in competition with each other. Set up in the city to stop the Seers taking over and as a second safeguard. With this it also allows for the conspiracies between the Seer groups to come out. And of course if any players are Seers they will need to join one or other group, but which one?

[Jengada]

Someone would have researched this list in such a place just for the competitive advantage it initially gave.

Exactly. I suspect I'm not the only one here who does this, but this all starts from planning to have 1 adventure in the city. Suddenly, I'm fleshing out the city layout, flavor, economy, population, history, and how the seers would have played in that.
My skeleton history now includes a period when seers became too heavily used, and the criminal world enlisted some mentalists to help develop a defense. They came up with the Guarded Sight list Voriig Kye pointed out (thanks on that!), and between that and some social engineering managed to drive the seers  themselves underground. The seers' enclave is now an abandoned building filled with psychic traps and other hazards. (I'm considering whether some of the spells on Guarded Sight would be better as combined Essence+Mentalism=Mystic lists because they could be interpreted to use Essence to bind a psychic energy around a person or place.)
The "honest business pact" uses a sign to show they don't rely on seers for an advantage. The City Commander (mayor) has one powerful seer he uses for city protection, but that seer is limited to that role (I have to figure out just HOW that limit is imposed still).
The basic adventure idea I was planning, even before I got all of this great advice on the seers - who were originally more incidental and a question for general city flavor - was that the party will be caught up in a feud between two local gangs. It was going to be about control of the waterfront, but it may be two factions of seers. Or two gangs seemingly after waterfront control, but it may turn out there's a seer behind one or both.

I'll check out the Mentalism Companion, too.

[Majyk]

The honest business pact could be something as simple as both parties(buyer and seller) donning a metal pot helm to safeguard the deal(-60 ESF to cast a Mentalism spell, if I remember my 90s ESF mods?).

If anything, it creates even more of a flavour for this city when the PCs either merely see transactions using this method, or have to perform this personally, themselves.

[B Hanson]

Just to interject on a SW angle. But doesn't the Alliance govern based on a Seer/Mentalist based society?

[Nightblade42]

Even without those companions RM2 has very simple rules for creating new spells and lists. A new 1st level spell literally takes just a matter of days to research. You could create a list of 1-10 spells that counter the most common Seer spells. You said that the most common levels were 5th or there abouts.

Someone would have researched this list in such a place just for the competitive advantage it initially gave.

I was thinking the same thing.  These could be developed as Guild lists, only available to the members of the particular Guild that developed them.  If you're really wanting, you could develop opposing lists developed by opposing Guilds.  But that depends on how much detail & time you want to put into this.

The honest business pact could be something as simple as both parties(buyer and seller) donning a metal pot helm to safeguard the deal(-60 ESF to cast a Mentalism spell, if I remember my 90s ESF mods?).

If anything, it creates even more of a flavour for this city when the PCs either merely see transactions using this method, or have to perform this personally, themselves.

That's an awesome idea!  I love that.  Imagine the looks of people new to the city viewing that for the first time!

Nightblade ->--

[gog]

Thinking about the business side and the use of Seers, would looking up how commercial Telepaths in Babylon 5 are used.

[netbat]

Another thing that would be very conspicuous along the lines of what jdale mentioned above is the number of talismans, symbols, and fetishes along with their sellers. If there are a "large" number of people who can scry, read your mind, or otherwise invade your privacy, there is going to be a market for anything that can prevent or make it more difficult(how well or if they actually work is a completely different thing). I would expect a lot of minor items to ward off the evil eye(or any Fm spell) either adding to the RR or cancel mentalism. I would expect most buildings to have scrying ward(from C&R perimeter wardings). There would probably also be a number of items/amulets etc with the 3rd level seer spell cloud scrying embedded. I would probably pick a couple of patterns as traditional protection(look up nazars or the evil eye) for use embedding and have everyone wearing them(plus they would be for sale all over the place). you can do the same thing with architectural elements that make wards more effective to make the city more distinctive.

[Jengada]

Another thing that would be very conspicuous along the lines of what jdale mentioned above is the number of talismans, symbols, and fetishes along with their sellers. If there are a "large" number of people who can scry, read your mind, or otherwise invade your privacy, there is going to be a market for anything that can prevent or make it more difficult(how well or if they actually work is a completely different thing). I would expect a lot of minor items to ward off the evil eye(or any Fm spell) either adding to the RR or cancel mentalism. I would expect most buildings to have scrying ward(from C&R perimeter wardings). There would probably also be a number of items/amulets etc with the 3rd level seer spell cloud scrying embedded. I would probably pick a couple of patterns as traditional protection(look up nazars or the evil eye) for use embedding and have everyone wearing them(plus they would be for sale all over the place). you can do the same thing with architectural elements that make wards more effective to make the city more distinctive.

I've been thinking about this, too. There will be some protective items, but because of the level of magic and the magic economy in my campaign, true items will be rare. (Not only do you need a 3rd level seer to make that "cloud scrying" amulet, you need an 11th level alchemist as well, and those are mighty rare in this culture.) Much more common will be items claimed to help, but meaningless. I'll probably have some symbol or material that people believe blocks scrying, but really doesn't. Seers don't care much what the common person does, so the myth can persist.

[netbat]

I've been thinking about this, too. There will be some protective items, but because of the level of magic and the magic economy in my campaign, true items will be rare. (Not only do you need a 3rd level seer to make that "cloud scrying" amulet, you need an 11th level alchemist as well, and those are mighty rare in this culture.) Much more common will be items claimed to help, but meaningless. I'll probably have some symbol or material that people believe blocks scrying, but really doesn't. Seers don't care much what the common person does, so the myth can persist.

That is pretty much the way I thought of it. How common real magic items are is highly dependent on the level of magic in the campaign. In the games I have played, at least half of all the "protection charms" would be worthless. The most common actual ones would be one-shot embedded protection(+5RR only needs a 3rd level embed I) or cancel mentalism(5th level embed II). The other item there might be a number of would be the permanent +5RR items(6th level General enchantment).
Of course your milage may vary. I don't like using lists for alchemy or any long term enchantments, I tend to use ritual magic for those so you don't necessarily need as high a level caster.

[Nightblade42]

Another thing that would be very conspicuous along the lines of what jdale mentioned above is the number of talismans, symbols, and fetishes along with their sellers. If there are a "large" number of people who can scry, read your mind, or otherwise invade your privacy, there is going to be a market for anything that can prevent or make it more difficult(how well or if they actually work is a completely different thing). I would expect a lot of minor items to ward off the evil eye(or any Fm spell) either adding to the RR or cancel mentalism. I would expect most buildings to have scrying ward(from C&R perimeter wardings). There would probably also be a number of items/amulets etc with the 3rd level seer spell cloud scrying embedded. I would probably pick a couple of patterns as traditional protection(look up nazars or the evil eye) for use embedding and have everyone wearing them(plus they would be for sale all over the place). you can do the same thing with architectural elements that make wards more effective to make the city more distinctive.

I've been thinking about this, too. There will be some protective items, but because of the level of magic and the magic economy in my campaign, true items will be rare. (Not only do you need a 3rd level seer to make that "cloud scrying" amulet, you need an 11th level alchemist as well, and those are mighty rare in this culture.) Much more common will be items claimed to help, but meaningless. I'll probably have some symbol or material that people believe blocks scrying, but really doesn't. Seers don't care much what the common person does, so the myth can persist.

Not sure if you're a fan of the show, but there's an Episode of Rick & Morty that pretty much plays this type of scenario out.  The Episode name is Something Ricked This Way Comes (Season 1, Episode 9) where The Devil has opened up a shop that sells Cursed Items.  Rick's Grand-Daughter summer is working there & Rick opens up a shop across the street that sells anti-cursing services so that the items sold by the Devil give the owner the mystical benefits of the item but not the cursed portion.  It's hilarious (I'm a huge fan of the show), but is a great demonstration of the type of Scyring vs. Anti-Scyring economy you're looking at, Jengada.

Nightblade ->--