Topic: Musing on the highly quirky nature of Kulthean technology

[metallion]

This whole discussion is kind of spoilery, so...

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Kulthea has a very quirky state of science, technology, and even set of seemingly natural phenomena.  Water boils, but steam engines aren't practical.  Fire burns, but after 12,000 years internal combustion isn't widespread.

Explanations that have been offered are unsatisfactory.  It's been suggested that people look to magic instead of technology, but that is manifestly untrue.  Magic is so beyond the reach of the average, every day farmer or factory worker that it may as well not exist. leaving people to look to technology.

So what's going on?

I posit several things:

1) I have suggested before that various magical manifestations display characteristics of nanotechnology.  For example, the Iron Wind spell seems like nothing so much as a predacious nanite cloud using the Grey Goo Problem as a strategy.  If Essence itself is a nanotechnological phenomenon, and magic a set of techniques for issuing instructions to that cloud, that creates several possibilities.  If Essence is self-aware, possibly regulated by Artificial Intelligence manifesting as the Eyes of Utha, that allows for a complicated set of automatic instruction.  For example "let combustion happen if it is providing warmth and cooking, but inhibit a nitroglycerine explosion." or "interfere with circuitry conducting electricity that is not sourced from an appropriate spell."  The implication would be that Utha instructed the eyes to hold technology to a certain level.

2) The technology works, but it's actively suppressed.  This would be the shadow side of the Loremasters, quietly sabotaging experiments that would lead to unapproved or undesirable technological developments.  Depending on how cynnical one is, these efforts could go so far as "unfortunate accidents" for researchers who don't take subtle hints to turn their investigations in different directions.  After all, Andraax's role in the world is Prison Warden, not saviour.

[egdcltd]

Maybe what you have is the overspill of different physical laws from another universe that not only create the "magic" but also tend to foul up technology. Imperial tech, which works elsewhere, is erratic on Kulthea, but Althan tech works fine, which suggests that it is designed around the different laws.

The second suggestion reminded me of David Weber's Safehold series.

[metallion]

I find nanotechnology more plausible than "overspill of different physical laws from another universe," but that may be a matter of personal taste.

Althan tech was designed from its very inception on Kulthea, and well before the institution of the Eyes, and could well be grandfathered.  The nanite field might be an Althan creation.  Another possibility is that the Lords of Orhan are AIs whose physical substrate is the nanite field, and they brought it with them -- and it's only post-Althan that anyone's considered restricting tech. 

[jdale]

"It's been suggested that people look to magic instead of technology, but that is manifestly untrue.  Magic is so beyond the reach of the average, every day farmer or factory worker that it may as well not exist."

It's not really about people in the general sense, though. It's about the kind of people who have the talent to be inventors. People who have unusually high mental stats. In many cases these will also be the people who have the capacity for magic. For non-magic invention, you need someone with talent but also an absence of magical potential. Oh, and also enough free time to pursue invention, and preferably some resources to work with.

Combine that with a deliberate effort to restrain technology, not necessarily just great powers like the Loremasters but also your local mages who see potential competition.

After all, steam engines were always possible on Earth, and there was proof of concept in the first century AD. But it wasn't till, what, the 1500's, 1600's before they really made any difference in the state of the world. That's with no magic and no suppression.

"I have suggested before that various magical manifestations display characteristics of nanotechnology."

I'm not really familiar with Shadow World beyond what's on the boards here, but this is one of the premises of my own setting.

[B Hanson]

Maybe what you have is the overspill of different physical laws from another universe that not only create the "magic" but also tend to foul up technology. Imperial tech, which works elsewhere, is erratic on Kulthea, but Althan tech works fine, which suggests that it is designed around the different laws.

The second suggestion reminded me of David Weber's Safehold series.

Have to agree in general but not with the Weber reference. Safehold is just an advanced technology introduced (slowly and purposefully) to a low tech level society. The issue with SW is that a new 'Verse' or "other planar" energy was introduced to Kulthea via an interdimensional rift. Leaving behind how this is feasible or sustainable (unlike magic of course.....) it does allow for a better explanation for SW magic within the larger SM universe.  It's there very "scientific" explanation that allows for the "unscientific" nature of a fantasy RPG.

For materials: metals, chemistry and normal processes:

We are close to locating its source within our system—perhaps in the gravity well between the planet and its second moon.  What do we know?  It’s unclear if this energy is modifying and transmuting our physical laws or subsuming them.  The “Viir” seems to fundamentally change both ionic and covalent bonding for molecular and macromolecular structures.  In practice this energy field is distorting chemical interactions and material structures most acutely—its effect on life forms and our planetary biome is still under analysis.

Thus we have an explanation (via the weak force) why normal chemical and catalytic effects are different than our "real world". At the same time, these effects create new meta materials that allow for advanced alloys and "magical" materials. Further for living beings:

While the Lords of Essence created the foundation of the planet phylo, the mutative effects of the Essence Flows are the single largest contributor to the diversity and evolutionary traits found among the biome.  The continual flows of Essence and their sharp fluctuations have a fundamental affect on living beings. Over time, more of the fauna has either become sensitive and thus able to use it, or adopted special “magical” abilities for survival. We have yet to isolate the specific epigenetic mechanism that allows for this, but our experiments lead us to believe that the subjects are increasing their sensitivity through time and effort.  It is our belief that the sensitivity acts as a feedback loop, allowing these subjects to conversely manipulate these fields to some unknown effect.

I think an epigenetic influence is the most obvious solution to Shadow World biodiversity and an explanation behind fantastic "creatures" (if such a mechanism is needed).

a note: the above inserts our from our own SWMA that we've created over the last 25 years. they are not official SW material.

[B Hanson]

May be helpful but I've attached our "SW Metal Chart". Breakage is used both for RR and RMU breakage factors. Forge type is another file but relates to technology.

[egdcltd]

The idea of an organisation suppressing technology had more to do with the beginning of the Safeworld series, when the Church was ruthlessly stamping it out on pain of pain, even if they didn't know why. Which could be a reason why the Loremasters might restrict it on Kulthea - it might attract scary things, like the United.

[jdale]

I think an epigenetic influence is the most obvious solution to Shadow World biodiversity and an explanation behind fantastic "creatures" (if such a mechanism is needed).

Species change operates through two mechanisms, variation and selection. Selection just means that the more fit tend to have offspring, and the less fit don't, so pretty soon the less fit lines are gone. Variation arises through various mechanisms, such as mutation. But point mutation is pretty slow. If magic can cause things to arise, however rarely, that have whole functional traits like fusing body parts from two different animals, hybridizing very dissimilar animals, magical ability...  once those traits exist, assuming the animal isn't incapable of breeding, those traits are going to stick around. It doesn't have to happen that often to be important. Presumably some of those traits, just as with mutations, will not be too useful. E.g. the goat with a head at both ends. They may not make it. Selection, sorry, you got eaten before you had offspring. But I think the important thing is that magic doesn't have to work at the genetic level. It can work on the level of the idea or the ideal, it can operate on the concept, and all the little mechanical things like genes will take care of themselves, just like when you create a wall of stone you don't have to worry about the arrangement of all the molecules of silica, they take care of themselves....

[B Hanson]

Science is moving quickly past natural selection as the primary driver of mutation--epigenetics acknowledges that external factors (like environment) can rapidly change gene expression without DNA mutation.

[egdcltd]

I find nanotechnology more plausible than "overspill of different physical laws from another universe," but that may be a matter of personal taste.

Thinking about it, the overspill of different physical laws is rather how Torg works, although that does need devices to be used in order to change the normal physical laws of Earth to those of the invading cosm.

[Terry K. Amthor]

I'm loving this discussion, and of course whatever works for your version of SW!

But I also think I mentioned at some point that perhaps Kulthea has not gone through the same kind of ancient prehistoric ages as Earth, and that it does not have the fossil fuels available that our planet does. (Alternatively, the Althans/K'ta'viiri depleted those resources when they rose through tech development long ago.)

So, coal and fossil oil would not be so plentiful and easily mined/extracted. Steam power would be less practical (does coal burn hotter than wood? Surely it is a more compact power source), and fuel for an internal combustion engine would have to come from renewable sources, a more complex and difficult process. Even the more advanced peoples are probably conserving coal for furnaces to smelt metals, and powering a steam engine would seem like a waste when the wind is free, and a wind spell cheap.

The Greeks had invented steam power and used olive oil for lamps thousands of years ago, but it wasn't until the industrial revolution that steam came into its own, and then in the British Empire. On Kulthea, the Namarian Elves (the most technically advanced group on the planet, and they will do anything to protect their technology) are just mastering steam power, and only for their flying ships because it is so expensive and complex. In the new Emer II I have the Namarian Elves paying high prices for coal...

[jdale]

Coal is better than wood, but charcoal is better in many respects than coke -- charcoal being produced from wood and coke being produced from coal, in both cases by extreme heat in the absence of air (so the source material doesn't actually burn). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charcoal

But industrial scale charcoal use takes a lot of wood, which means a lot of forest and a lot of labor. Coal has some big advantages on that side of things. Wikipedia says:
In the 16th century England had to pass laws to prevent the country from becoming completely denuded of trees due to production of iron. In the 19th century charcoal was largely replaced by coke, baked coal, in steel making due to cost. Charcoal is a far superior fuel to coke, however, because it burns hotter and has no sulfur. Until World War II charcoal was still being used in Sweden to make ultra high-quality steel. In steel-making, charcoal is not only a fuel, but a source for the carbon in the steel according to some scholars such as Moronda, 2011.

The use of magic to change the rate of tree growth or to change the purity of materials could also change the economics, probably in whatever direction you feel like changing them....

[Terry K. Amthor]

Ah, excellent jdale, fascinating stuff. I'm learning a lot about the age of steam....

So I can see the Namarian Elves, once they discover it, making charcoal for forges, not only for the heat but the carbon for steel. But it's a laborious process, and they would keep it from others as long as they could. Regular steam boilers could use coal or oil

[RandalThor]

Well, I guess it was about time for this conversation to pop up again. Here goes:

It's been suggested that people look to magic instead of technology, but that is manifestly untrue.  Magic is so beyond the reach of the average, every day farmer or factory worker that it may as well not exist. leaving people to look to technology.

Like Jdale I believe that those that would be scientists would instead be those that use magic, but I think it goes beyond that.

I think that the idea that the average Joe-shmo does not see magic on at least a weekly basis is erroneous. On Kulthea the average fighter can learn spells, and if they don't I believe they would be at a big disadvantage, so they would, to stay alive. I think that farmers, craftsmen and all the other non-adventuring classes would also learn some magic just to be able to do their jobs better. Think about it: you have a 250 acre farm, and you use all mundane methods of farming, your neighbor has the same size farm but he, and few other members of his family have all learned some spells off the Nature's Law, Purifications and Weather Ways lists (Channeling - I think it makes more sense for these types). How do you think they perform compared to you? I would say they out-farm the heck out of you.

This is like now; I am not a scientist or technician but I have learned a little of what both of those professions offer to be able to function in a technologically based world. I would say most of us have, to lesser and greater degrees. Heck, even on the Master Character Table T-5.8 in RMFRP (pg. 60) they show the pure arms NPCs as having some ranks in spells. (I think the numbers are a bit low, but maybe that is geared towards a more base-line fantasy setting, which SW is most definitely not.)

The only way for anyone to make me think otherwise if for Terry to retro-grade the whole setting - rewriting all the books - with an added thing stating that only 1 in 100,000 (or so) individuals carry a special gene that allows them to do magic. Otherwise, as the setting stands, it makes no sense for "normals" to not learn some magic, it just doesn't.

[Marrethiel]

Personally I think in a world with magic, that technology would evolve with it. Technology is the application of science, so once something is better understood (steam expands and makes pressure, or the concept of oxidisation, for example) then processes would come about using magic at its roots. So for example a steam engine could burn wood which needs constant replenishing and a lengthy supply chain or you could do either of these:
1/ Enchant a first level heat spell to make a piece of iron hot, which can be lowered into a tank of water.
2/ Summon and bind an imp
3/ Use ritual magic to open a small gate to a fire plane (for a large ship maybe).

All of these would produce far better steam engines. And then you can also summon water in to the boiler too. These can all be low level spells that would drastically alter a world once the science is understood. I believe however that in a world of magic there would be less of an imperative to study it. The smart people are probably all spell casters. Kinda like our world, where the smartest people go to do law not economics

I also think that if we had magic come to this relatively high tech world then we could get a lot more bang for the buck than a primitive spell caster. Making optimum use of every tenth decimal place of mana would be the thing.
- healing might be done by surgeons using precision robotics, why use 50th level spells when you can cast 20 first level ones in exactly the correct place, ie from inside the body. So instead of Heart Repair, you can do an angiogram and do a minor tissue repair on the flesh that happens to be the heart.
- electronics manufacture would be enhanced with magic, getting down to single digit nano path ways in CPU's etc.
- construction could be greatly enhanced with earth / stone to mud type spells, especially in ritual/item forms. ie converting 100 tonnes of granite to "mud" for an hour, pour into the mold and wait for it to set.

This is a bit off topic I know, but it is an interesting thought bubble

[markc]

In the past I have used the "one type of earth" to another "type of matter" in my games to great effect. In general I like the earth to water, into mold then back into earth idea.
MDC 

[metallion]

It's not really about people in the general sense, though. It's about the kind of people who have the talent to be inventors. People who have unusually high mental stats. In many cases these will also be the people who have the capacity for magic. For non-magic invention, you need someone with talent but also an absence of magical potential. Oh, and also enough free time to pursue invention, and preferably some resources to work with.

That doesn't mean it's not about people.  An inventor that only invents things that can be used by the magicly talented isn't going to be able to sell many inventions.  Such a person will quickly turn their efforts to inventing things that will actually rake in the Selin.  Edison wasn't out to show off how smart he was, after all.

Combine that with a deliberate effort to restrain technology, not necessarily just great powers like the Loremasters but also your local mages who see potential competition.

What competition?  Your local mages aren't out there casting magic spells on behalf of the working class.

After all, steam engines were always possible on Earth, and there was proof of concept in the first century AD. But it wasn't till, what, the 1500's, 1600's before they really made any difference in the state of the world. That's with no magic and no suppression.

That's literally one tenth of recorded post-Loremaster history.

[metallion]

I think that the idea that the average Joe-shmo does not see magic on at least a weekly basis is erroneous. On Kulthea the average fighter can learn spells, and if they don't I believe they would be at a big disadvantage, so they would, to stay alive. I think that farmers, craftsmen and all the other non-adventuring classes would also learn some magic just to be able to do their jobs better. Think about it: you have a 250 acre farm, and you use all mundane methods of farming, your neighbor has the same size farm but he, and few other members of his family have all learned some spells off the Nature's Law, Purifications and Weather Ways lists (Channeling - I think it makes more sense for these types). How do you think they perform compared to you? I would say they out-farm the heck out of you.

I think they don't.  Most Arms users spend 20-25 Dev Points to for a single shot at a spell list pick, and that pick only gives them up to Level 5 of an open list.  That's 3 lore spells on Nature's Law, a bit of disease and poison treatment on Purifications, and knowing the temperature and predicting rain on Weather Ways.  I think a farmer who spends those 25 points on the various skills that go into farming are going to get a whole lot more bankg or their buck a whole lot faster than the guy trying to learn that spell list.

(Quick poll: How many PC arms users out there spend Dev Points on learning spells?)

[markc]

Yes, in RMSS if I play a rogue or warrior monk, then I generally plan on buying a spell list or two at some point down the line.
MDC

[Terry K. Amthor]

Yes, in RMSS if I play a rogue or warrior monk, then I generally plan on buying a spell list or two at some point down the line.
MDC

And I don;t know RMSS, but I think that in RM2 you can literally study for a given number of weeks of game-time (not expending points) and try to learn a list. Correct? (It has been awhile).