Author Topic: I'd like your advice  (Read 3686 times)

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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I'd like your advice
« on: September 16, 2013, 08:57:06 PM »
This is a situation that I hope most of us won't have to handle:

I have a writer friend who has been outed for plagiarism. I am also friends with his critics. I have gone on record as stating I am the writer's friend, and have told him so privately, along with advice that, rather than remain silent, he admits the plagiarism, not try to justify his actions, and, if possible, note every instance (especially those yet to be outed).

I know there is a saying going around Christian circles-- to "hate the sin but not the sinner"--that is rarely followed and commonly cited (without attribution), and that is what I see myself as doing.

Question is: what do you think of my situation and stance, and what would you recommend that I do in this situation?
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Offline Badger

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 09:17:41 PM »
Hmm...

We do seem to be bumping into each other a bit.  :)

As you're aware, I spent many years working in academia and I mentor several writers. I've encountered plagiarism several times in several different areas.

I've had two of my works plagiarised (that I know of). Once was accidental, and the academic who inadvertently had his article pruned so that my work made up the bulk of his piece went to considerable efforts to notify me and apologise. He also ensured that the offending journal was outed for its appalling editing.

The other time resulted in a student ultimately being expelled and sent home to England. Their Australian university experience was terminated (by appalling luck, the student submitted a piece I'd written to an old friend of mine who lectured at a different university - and who had happened to proof read my article when it was originally written. It truly is a small world).

So... I have opinions on this stuff.

It's a matter of hats. One hat is that you are a friend. The other hat is that you are a professional colleague. In this instance, the imperatives are in direct opposition. You must - as his friend - decide to value and accept him full knowing hat he's human and capable of making a complete hash of things. As a colleague, you must condemn plagiarism.

Plagiarism must be treated as a cancer. The right to be known as the creator of our own work is really all we ever have. If plagiarism is tolerated, then so to will be intellectual property theft by companies.

You described it well. Hate the sin, accept the sinner.

Badger

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 09:23:21 PM »
It's a tough situation when a friend of yours doesn't something you don't approve of - but there is always more to a person than one action, or even one set of actions.  It's now that your friend will need you most - but you also need to make sure that this friend understands that you do not in any way condone his actions.  If he truly is contrite about his actions, he will need your support in the days ahead.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 10:16:22 PM »
To me it has nothing to do with "hating" anything. You're teaching him the value of integrity, which is hard to understand fully without also learning the price of living without it. If he learns that lesson well, long after you are dead, others who learned it from him will have value from it. There aren't many things a human can do that are truly immortal, and most of those aren't worth the work involved. Ozymandias and all that. Teaching the value of integrity is one of the rare exceptions to that, and the fact that he's your friend just makes it that much more of an imperative for you to want him to learn it.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 12:32:48 AM »
If it was done knowingly and intentionally... i.e. he knew exactly what he was doing and that it was wrong... then he's pretty much hosed I think.  Copying an engineering design and making it better it one thing, but to copy creative work is something else in my opinion.  Someone that does that is probably going to refuse to admit that they did it.  It says a lot about their personal integrity and a bit about their belief in their own talents.  I'd just stay out of it and tell both sides why you're staying out of it.

However, is it possible they did not realize what they were doing to the level which they were doing it?  If that's the case, being up front and admitting you were wrong will hopefully bring some understanding and forgiveness.
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 01:32:19 AM »
Thank you for your input, thus far.

One of the complications is that both my friend and I are involved in a degree of intertextual writing, with the main difference being that I am scrupulous about noting the texts I quote from, use in centos (a poem made up from quotations from other poems), terminals (a poem that uses the same final words as another poem), glosses (a poem that comments on another poem) and so on. This is regardless of the notion that all texts refer to other texts by their very nature (that is, apart from quotation).

In this he has attempted to justify his actions, invoking that tradition of intertextuality as a poetic strategy, without admitting to plagiarism. I have, after reading the above comments, emailed and said that I recommend he admit to plagiarism, and not try to justify himself, as the latter always makes him look worse in the eyes of his critics and enemies (the poetry world can be quite factional and prone to backbiting).

Anyway, I hope it works out. I'm being honest with him, straightforward yet as tactful as is possible with him.

Thank you for your input, and feel free to add more as you see fit.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 08:54:07 AM »
To a great extent you have to do what *you* can live with and feel is right. This is a complex situation...one that doesn't easily lend itself to discussion in a forum. I'd dealt with plagiarism in the academic realm, and it's very rarely pretty. Sometimes it's well-intentioned people who simply don't realize that they've done anything wrong; in other cases it's one of the "free content" warriors who don't recognize the concept as being 'wrong' in any way.

Hopefully this will sort out without anyone getting seriously hurt. However, if your friend did this knowingly and then expects you to cover for the misdeed (I'm not saying this is the case, mind), then it might be time for a larger re-evaluation.
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Offline arakish

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 10:01:19 AM »
As a past published author (some short stories in Omni, Amazing Stories, Playboy, and others) back in late 70s to mid 80s, I have only been plagiarized once.  When I confronted the person (through email since he lived across country), he immediately apologized stating that he missed the partial sentence in his proofing and forgot to cite.

Since, he and I have become close email friends.  He now lives in Moskva, Russia as a government consultant.  He now wonders why I have never written and published anything since.  I told him how my wife and twin daughters were killed, and my inspiration for writing went away.  Not that I do not have ideas for novels, I just don't have the "oomph" (or whatever it is called) to write anymore.

As for your friend, I would simply point out where he plagiarized, then explain why it is wrong.  Try to steer him back to writing integrity.  If he continues to plagiarize, then he cannot be a true friend.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »
I'm so sorry Arakish-- that is unimaginable. My deepest condolences.

As to Phillip's question, I come at it from an academic background (that's where I publish). Plagiarism is not tolerated at all there, so if your friend ever hopes to publish with an academic press, he needs to come clean and accept the consequences. I am scrupulous in citing my sources, but even I once got accused (wrongly) of plagiarism. Happily, my sister and father in law are both lawyers and helped me refute the accusations. My advice is that your friend talk to a lawyer to get a professional opinion on whether or not he has plagiarised. The laws of intellectual property can be complex, and what one person thinks is plagiarism may not be plagiarism, legally speaking. So I would talk to a lawyer and get a better sense of the law before doing anything.

As a friend, you are absolutely right to point out that plagiarism is wrong and to tell your friend that he needs to make sure he never plagiarizes and owns up to it if he has. Make clear that you are still his friend, but also that you do not accept what he has done (if he has plagiarized).
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Offline markc

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2013, 11:30:03 AM »
 I forget the name of the people that you hire to help you out of bad PR, but they always say if you did it say you did it and admit all of it up front. Get it all out there and hope for the best.


 Also IMHO there is a difference between not realizing you should cite, forgetting to cite, being to lazy to cite and not citing at all. And he may have to change his style a bit if it becomes a problem in the future because it is getting easier and easier to detect "copying" by comparing texts on computers to see if you have copied a published work.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 11:52:52 AM »
I just would like to add, he may have to change his style a bit if it becomes a problem in the future because it is getting easier and easier to detect "copying" by comparing texts on computers to see if you have copied a published work.

 :D
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 12:03:40 PM »
In this he has attempted to justify his actions, invoking that tradition of intertextuality as a poetic strategy, without admitting to plagiarism.
With me it comes down to if it was purely intentional.  If he used an accepted practice and neglected to cite for reasons other than sheer selfishness, then I think he says that's exactly what he did, admit it was stupid, and make apologies to the appropriate people.  While I do not know this person and might be dead wrong, if it was purely intentional than I think it will likely take the threat of being blacklisted within his professional community to admit the wrongdoing.  Even when caught, if there are no repercussions, a persons negative behavior will likely remain unchanged. *cough* politicians *cough*
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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 04:46:01 PM »
Thank you for your comments: I am still thinking deeply about how to be an ethical person and a good friend.
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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: I'd like your advice
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2013, 09:38:35 AM »
By thinking about how to be an ethical person and a good friend you should realize that you're halfway there. You have also seemed to act according to these ethics which is the rest of the way. His reputation may be ruined at this point but I agree, there is no reason to stop being friends or have an animosity towards him. His actions are unethical but each of us has in some degree done wrong, even to others. If we were to hate the sinner, friendship would be impossible with our human capacity to sin. It is in our capacity to love the sinner, this is where true virtue lies. You are a good friend to this person as you have forgiven his transgression, especially in the light of your profession.