Topic: Cosmology

[PhillipAEllis]

I was thinking recently about the default planes of existence in Rolemaster, and whether there is room to explore examples of alternative cosmologies. I have always had a nostalgia for the planar system of 1st ed AD&D, since I had devored its Manual of the Planes, and spent a large part of my gaming time tinkering with the settings.

Anyway, I digress.

Would there be much scope for a sort of "Planar Law", a supplement exploring the other planes of existence? What sort of planes do you consider essential for your game? If you had to make a list of interesting planes to explore, which would you choose?

[Cory Magel]

I just make them up as I go... so, like many things, I just use random pieces of source material or make up my own.

[Old Man]

I like doing stuff with alternate Plane(t)s and also did a merge of Manual of the Planes with Elemental Companion at one point (it is in an old Guild Companion issue somewhere). Kobold Press did an entire patronage project (Dark Roads and Golden hells) of alternate planes for Pathfinder/Midgard. (Pazio did a supplement Distant Worlds as well....) It wouldn't surprise me if there'd be interest over on this side of the Gaming-verse for Rolemaster Extra-planar content.

Regards,
Old Man

[GrumpyOldFart]

Alternate worlds are easy, any GM that does his own world-building has one. Figuring out a consistent logical structure to explain things like Elemental planes, the astral plane, etc, that will be accepted by a majority of your fan base is more difficult.

Worse, not worrying about whether your fan base is happy with it isn't one of your options, even with those who tend not to buy modules and such... that is, unless there is no way for the game system's magic to affect interaction with any of those planes. If there is, those who don't accept the underlying premise of such a planar structure will consider the magic system broken, simply because it's based on the assumption that such an underlying premise is "correct" while they consider it "incorrect."

[Temujin]

You're being awfully grumpy in that last post.  Oh wait! :p

I do think there's room for a Planar Law.  I entertained the notion of designing one at one point, but decided not to start mostly because of time issues.  I do think there is room for making a coherent view set detailing the RM planes.  It might be worth it not to make one book with the lot of it, and do it modular, like Elemental Companion, one for the spirit realm, one for the Demonic planes (Pales, Void, etc.).  It really should be tied in with the Creatures & Monsters or however this one is going to be called.

[jdale]

Alternate worlds are easy, any GM that does his own world-building has one. Figuring out a consistent logical structure to explain things like Elemental planes, the astral plane, etc, that will be accepted by a majority of your fan base is more difficult.

You're probably pretty much stuck with that when it comes to describing the contents of a given plane, but when it comes to defining the relationships between the planes and the meta-spatial relationships between them, one good solution is to present multiple answers as "here are leading theories among those whose magic draws upon the different planes." Make it an in-game debate, leave it for the GM to make a decision if they wish, but with plenty of material to work with instead of leaving them entirely on their own.

[GrumpyOldFart]

That was pretty much what I was thinking, that in order to have it not cause as many problems as it solves, you'd need to have several "unified planar theories," any one of which will work with the magic system used to manipulate those relationships.

Not impossible, but yes, more difficult.

[yammahoper]

The source of "magic" in my universe is the Ethereal Plane.  The plane is two dimensional and bisects the universe.  It is not flat like paper but more like a crumpled sheet of paper.   Esseance pools and flows in the spaces between the crumples of the plane, and the plane moves, meaning an area of the prime may have more, less or no magic over the ages of time.

The pales, elemental planes and alternate planes radiate out from the prime.  As one mage player noted, the planes are all infinite until they are not.

There is a space between planes I call Sub Space.  Massive columns of pure Esseance energy provide support to the planes and points to pivot, flow, rotate and orbit on.  One end of the pillars is pure Aether, the other pure Nether.  This is a place of constant change and absurd energies clashing.  The beings that live there are oldest in any univesre or plane.  The Dragons come from here, for example, before migrating to the Elemental Planes. 

Portals and the like tend to travel through Sub Space.  gates tend to lead to the Ethereal Plane, which is like a highway of the planes.  Gates leading directly to outer planes are the rarest, with summoning gates being far more common than actual two way gates.

[Cory Magel]

I haven't really bothered with a model, but... thinking about it I can say, generically, it would look something like this...  heaven (maybe 3?), limbo (only 1), and hell (likely 9).  I'd likely create planes for each of the major deities which would connect to one divine plane that would then connect to the heaven and hell planes via limbo, and then there would be chaos.  Off the top of my head it would look like this...
             
                                    'Neutral' gods
                                             ^
                   'Good' gods < Divine > 'Evil' gods
                                             ^
       3? Heavenly Planes < Limbo > 9 Hell Planes
                                             ^
Air, Earth, Light < The Physical Planet/Plane > Dark, Fire, Ice

                                         Chaos

I'd probably make it possible to enter Chaos from any plane, which would mean you could potentially use it for a shortcut to any other... but it would be extremely dangerous and probably not worth the shortcut for even a deity due to the nature of chaos. (Chaos would be 'what came before' everything - so not even deities would have any real control there).

[markc]

 I am in the middle in that I think it might have a place and it might not have a place as a book. It really depends on how you play RM, IMHO. But IMHO if it is done very well I think it will sell but how that is achieved is the problem.
 
 As such I do have a planer structure (vague outline) for the game I am working on right now that I think works well with the setting.
MDC

[PhillipAEllis]

IMHO if it is done very well I think it will sell but how that is achieved is the problem.

G'day! What elements and qualities do you consider essential to being "done very well"? And what and where would you like to see it go the extra mile, give added value?

I ask as, if I get around to doing something like this it would be invaluable as a guide to the standards I'd have to live up to.

[jdale]

I would suggest putting the focus not on the planes but on Summoning. Content could include professions (e.g. essence and channeling summoner professions), spell lists, details about summoning rituals, etc. Perhaps also a Banisher class, more spell lists for getting rid of stuff. Different reasons for summoning, not just to make them attack/defend but also calling creatures for divination, for analysis of items, etc, which will help make the professions more well-rounded. Then you've got room to discuss the wide variety of creatures that can be summoned, how they can be expected to act, etc. Cosmology provides an over-arching framework for the whole story, but because it is not the spotlight topic there is less need to provide firm answers. So, not Planar Law but Summoning Law.

Also, as a general principle, you sell more copies of books that have information required for character building than those that do not.

[Cory Magel]

Good suggestions jdale.  As with many topics various GM's Cosmetology will potentially setup differently, but the beings/monsters/whatever involved are probably going to be more consistent based on the system.

So, you give spell lists, summoning rules, and/or professions that deal with the primary plane side of things (which will be more useful to a wider audience) and let them determine the non-primary plane make up.

[markc]

 Well I think I would start with the big ones such as Daemons and Devils and move on from there. As J Dale said summoning is a huge factor and applies to all realms.
 Also people have been looking for a good undead companion that can be tied into a plane type book. So I think you might not be looking at one book but a frame work that can be applied to quite a few books of various sizes.


MDc

[Old Man]

Comprehensive rules for summoning/binding of anything - Demons/Devils/Elementals/Undead/Animals/Spirits/Constructs - would be helpful whether or not tied to a Cosmology/Planes book. Aspects including durations/limits of control/difficulties of summoning/rituals/classes/special items/etc.

[Modric]

Planar game mechanics has always been lacking in Rolemaster. I use Rolemaster Companion IV and the Elemental Companion as a jumping off point for cosmology. Spell User Companion also had a good spell list (Planar Law).