Author Topic: Swimming and Armor (Read 4577 times)

GrumpyOldFart · « **on:** February 02, 2012, 06:52:15 AM »

Speaking of which, I'm not sure a metal helmet wouldn't be as much of a drowning hazard as a metal breastplate.

Marc R · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2012, 06:57:55 AM »

I'm sure it wouldn't help, but if forced to choose between being thrown in a pool with one or the other strapped on in a manner it couldn't be taken off, I'd take the helmet. . .unless you're talking one of those gothic jousting helms with just a tiny slit, in which case you'd likely drown either way.

GrumpyOldFart · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:46:51 AM »

Quote from: Marc R on February 02, 2012, 06:57:55 AM

I'm sure it wouldn't help, but if forced to choose between being thrown in a pool with one or the other strapped on in a manner it couldn't be taken off, I'd take the helmet. . .unless you're talking one of those gothic jousting helms with just a tiny slit, in which case you'd likely drown either way.

Well that one would be very situational. What I'm thinking of is which is worse, there's weight on your torso such that it's impossible to float, or there's weight on your head and the natural buoyancy of your chest keeps trying to take your feet out from under you and put you head downward.

VladD · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:55:16 AM »

The maximum weight for a fully enclosing helmet is in the region of 12 pounds, add some water logged liner in there for 15 pounds total. That would not make you bob upside down. That does not mean I'm saying: lets strap that to my head and throw me in the deep end...

GrumpyOldFart · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2012, 09:47:08 AM »

I'll take your word for it, I'm not a diver.... which is why it was a worry to me, I don't know enough to know what I don't know.

That said, I expect the values for X weight = Y amount of drowning hazard would also vary somewhat with the salinity of the water. The salinity of the Dead Sea apparently changes the buoyant properties of people and such, but I bet it doesn't change the buoyant properties of a helmet full of water even a little bit.

RandalThor · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 02:48:45 PM »

Quote from: Marc R on February 02, 2012, 11:16:58 AM

I've carried weights in excess of the above on top of my head when swimming, like "I'll swim the bag of sandwiches over to the float".

In WSSI (Water Safety & Survival Instructor) school in the Marine Corps. I had to tread water for a set amount of time (I forget how long) while holding a cinder-block over my head. Also, swimming from one end of a pool to the other (it wasn't a full Olympic sized pool, but plenty long enough) while holding a brick in either hand (one in each). Not fun.

But, don't you all think that all this getting uber-detailed (like the "salinity of the water") is why RM isn't such a huge game?

Anyway, I am OK with the "double-dip" of bonus from having armor & shields so long as the negative attributes are applied. Like the -500 Billion! that wearing full plate armor should give you for any swimming tests.

bpowell · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:18:52 PM »

We did the same in BUDS I cannot say that I enjoyed the day, but you can hold like 10-15 pounds out of the water for a while. At least long enough to unbuckle the helmet and ditch it.

Marc R · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:31:27 PM »

I suspect just as is the rules work fine. . .as in 3x your maneuver penalty for armor swimming. . .and if helmets offer and benefit beyond saving you from rare situational crits (like a small DB bonus), then they should have a little maneuver penalty too. . .and be x3 also in swimming. . .but I'd set the maneuver penalty pretty low, since I think common sense per above indicates being strapped into a breastplate is more of a hazard than a helm. . .simple and sweet. . .On the flip side, unlike armor, you can usually get out of a helm really fast. . .if you happen to be in a helmet that's hex keyed to your gorget which is riveted to your breastplate and you need a 3rd party to get it off. . .stay away from water deeper than 1/2 inch.

arakish · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:47:00 PM »

Quote from: RandalThor on February 02, 2012, 02:48:45 PM

In WSSI (Water Safety & Survival Instructor) school in the Marine Corps. I had to tread water for a set amount of time (I forget how long) while holding a cinder-block over my head.

I had to do this while in advanced training in the Navy. We had to hold the cinder block up for 20 minutes! And as you said, not enjoyable. Seemed an eternity. And then had to swim with bricks... Still not fun.

Quote from: bpowell on February 02, 2012, 03:18:52 PM

We did the same in BUDS I cannot say that I enjoyed the day, but you can hold like 10-15 pounds out of the water for a while. At least long enough to unbuckle the helmet and ditch it.

Which is why I would agree with this (emphasized text).

rmfr

Marc R · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:50:25 PM »

I suspect a helm is easier, since it's strapped to your head and not occupying a hand you'd otherwise use swimming/treading. Like I know swimming/treading water with 5-10# of weights on a belt is tiring but easier than trying to hold something up out of the water from SCUBA training.

yammahoper · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:52:08 PM »

Its interesting how many of us have had water survival course in one form or another.

I always imagined the lone sailor not in the water when all the others hit it. When ordered to jump in, he responds "Sir, it is my entionion to not let the boat be sunk, sir."

Instant E5.

RandalThor · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:52:23 PM »

Quote from: yammahoper on February 02, 2012, 03:52:08 PM

Its interesting how many of us have had water survival course in one form or another.

I always imagined the lone sailor not in the water when all the others hit it. When ordered to jump in, he responds "Sir, it is my entionion to not let the boat be sunk, sir."

Instant E5.

Just think back to the day when the average sailor didn't know how to swim - like most in a fantasy world I would imagine. (When the monsters are real, it really puts a damper on things.)

arakish · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:04:47 AM »

Back to the original question.

I feel it would be easier to survive swimming in water with a helm on, than with a breastplate. If I were wearing both, I'd try to get the breastplate off first. Even if all you can do is tread water, you should be able to keep your head above water, even with a helm. It is the breastplate that would ultimately drag you down.

Additionally, I'd get rid of both, but the breastplate first, then get my head above water. You can always remove the helm when you get your head above water.

Quote from: yammahoper on February 02, 2012, 03:52:08 PM

Its interesting how many of us have had water survival course in one form or another.

When you spend months on board a ship, you ain't got much else to do except role-play, play penny poker (we weren't allowed to play for serious money), sit around and BS, etc. Thus, the reason I think many RPGers are military or ex-military.

rmfr

markc · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2012, 08:57:00 AM »

One note from GM to PC's "Carry a knife to cut your armor off in case you ever need to remove it quickly."
MDC

arakish · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:23:05 AM »

Quote from: markc on February 03, 2012, 08:57:00 AM

One note from GM to PC's "Carry a knife to cut your armor off in case you ever need to remove it quickly."
MDC

And if they don't carry that knife or dagger, I find a reason to dunk them and teach them why.

(I know that's wicked, but...)

rmfr

jdale · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:43:44 AM »

A helm is generally going to be easier to remove than a breastplate. For my armor, the helm has a single buckle (in back) which connects to the chin strap, and then just pulls off. It is some effort (it's important that the helm fit tightly and not move around on your head) but not too bad. Some helms don't have straps at all, especially open-faced ones.

My torso armor has two buckles on each sides plus one on each pauldron. In addition, a weapon belt is going to be worn over the torso armor, so that needs to be moved, too.

A knife would help but not by a very big margin. It might save a turn or two at best. It would help a lot for someone else removing the armor from me, but the angles would be awkward for me doing it myself.

Marc R · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2012, 09:46:42 AM »

A backpack will make taking torso off harder too, though swimming with a full backpack doesn't sound like a very good idea either.

Modern snap releases are great, but if your armor is belt buckle closures or laced, you may be in trouble, especially if those buckles and laces are so awkward to get at while wearing the armor you usually have someone help you in and out of it.

markc · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2012, 10:07:09 AM »

Quote from: arakish on February 03, 2012, 09:23:05 AM

Quote from: markc on February 03, 2012, 08:57:00 AM
One note from GM to PC's "Carry a knife to cut your armor off in case you ever need to remove it quickly."
MDC

And if they don't carry that knife or dagger, I find a reason to dunk them and teach them why. (I know that's wicked, but...)

rmfr

Some people do not take other peoples word for things and have to experience things before they believe it. Of course natural selection in the way past removed most of those from the gene pool.
Bob you cannot out run a cheetah it will catch you and eat you. No Fred I do not believe you, I can out run that simple cat. Just watch me. Bob turns his head after 20 seconds as he can watch no more.
MDC

Marc R · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2012, 12:22:32 PM »

My players tend to be cautious of water when in full armor, and tend to strip down to less armor if they know falling in is going to be an issue in the near future.

Marc R · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2012, 10:58:16 AM »

Split off the "drowning in three inches" to another thread.

Quote from: bpowell on February 13, 2012, 01:00:30 AM

I have run more that one Water based session, mostly the party moving from one locale to the other and using a ship. The characters are normally happy to change from metal to leather based protection. One time we had a character tell us he had 6 ranks in swimming. But as the penalties began to accumulate and her realized Exhaustion would be the cause of his death he learned. The next time he was on ship he ... 'Spend my days NAKED...oh yeah!"

Nothing happened on the trip but the player played the character as an almost total hydrophobic. Was interesting and great Role Playing.

I find it amusing to see the conflicting paranoias of "Getting out of your armor" vs "Drowning" play out.

News:

Author Topic: Swimming and Armor (Read 4577 times)