Topic: New converts: D&D (epic) -> RMSS

[mordenkhai]

Hello everyone.  I have been running a 3.5 D&D epic campaign for about 5 years, and to be blunt I am tired of it.  Primarily the D&D system, the spell casting system especially.  So I decided to try and talk the group into trying a different game.  I have wanted to play Rolemaster for quite some time, now was the time to try it.

When I was in high school I fell into a group of people playing Rolemaster and had an amazing time.  I'll always remember learning the "said at the table, said in the game" rule the hard way, after we traveled far and wide to find a library of some spellcaster, we searched it for information and found none.  I immediately said "well this library sucks" and clearly insulted him resulting in a duel, which I actually won as a lower level sorcerer by stunning him with a snap cast rolling 100, and 100 on casting a fireball and the crit!.  Great times!  If I still had contact info for the DM I'd drop him a line, sadly Todd McGovern moved away and I was far too young to keep in touch with anyone.  Getting to game with him while he worked on the Arcane companion was fun!

Anyhow, now that I am trying to recall how to play, I realize that not having people who know is a huge huge pain!  I have tons of questions, big and small.  I am hoping to compile them in this thread and find some vets out there willing to help steer our group down the right path.   

Firstly, the setting.  We are planning on using only the Core book, Spell Law, Arcane Companion, Talent Law and Arms Law.  We haven't made characters yet, so I don't know that anyone will want to use the Martial Arts companion, but if so, should we?  I have seen many people say it is too powerful, unbalanced etc.  First game, first group, trying to keep it as simple as I can.

Second, character creation software?  I found a program called Character Software companion, seems ok but not great.  I was planning on using flat 100Dev points to alleviate some of the wrangling of stats for dev point purposes, and the software doesn't support it.  Other than that, it seems ok.  I am still not 100% sure it follows the other rules, and not 100% sure I understand them well enough to know!

Speaking of character creation, specifically skill ranks and caps.  D&D was easy in that there was a flat cap on skills based on level.  Here, for Skill X assuming a 1/5 cost, and an Occupational designation, 0 adolescent and 0 hobby ranks, I spend 6 dev points for 2 ranks, which become 6 ranks.  Then I can take a Lifestyle training package which gives me 2 ranks, for a total of 8 ranks.  Finally another training package, vocational this time, gives me 3 ranks, but I only go to 10, as a TP can't raise past 10?  So is it best to have them "buy" the TP but not add it until AFTER they spend their dev points  in order to make sure they don't buy too many ranks?  I also planned on using an optional rule , don't recall where I read it, that lets them buy ranks they skipped, letting them get caught up in a skill they ignored before, but now want to develop.

EDIT: Forgot a question...Ambush, melee only or ranged as well assuming the basic other requirements are met?  I have one for sure possibly two people wanting to play ranged attack, missile or thrown, style characters.  I am not sure they can ambush, I didn't see melee only specifically, but wanted to be certain before 6 games in, the world comes crashing down as rogues, magents and the like are killing everyone off from the shadows across the street.

Finally, for now, I have seen various people post about banning spell lists etc.  My GM had a list which was quite close to the ones I've seen posted on at least 1 persons web site.  Is it that common?  Is it that necessary?  I am hoping they avoid the lists just out of disinterest, but if they pick one, say one of those monk movement lists I see people shy away from, is it going to hurt me trying to get the game running smoothly?

Thanks for reading all that, and thanks in advance for any info you can share.  I am really looking forward to the game, and I know at least some of the players are as it has been 3 days since the option was discussed and I have 2 character concepts already delivered to me!

Morden Khai

[yammahoper]

Some comments.

rather than Talent Law, you may want to use Character Law, which has a reformatted and edited version of Talent Law within it.  The talents as a whole are much better balanced and presented.

Ranged Ambush has been handled in the past by developing a different skill called sniping.  Targeting is another optional skill that is used to offset range penalties (and requires a single deliberate attack).  Sniping is a subterfuge skill while targeting is a combat mnv.  Sniping works as ambush at range and targeting applies the skill rank bonus against range mods with a successful skill check.

If you have a lot of new players, School of Hard Knocks will probably prove useful.  The book offers definitions for all the skill in the RMSS/FRP system, has resolution tables and with each skill description, modifiers that can be applied.  As an experienced GM I find all that info a bit cumbersome, but for a new players learning the system I can see how it would be VERY useful.

The core spell list in RM are fine and I doubt any will give you as GM much trouble.  Arcan Companion has some very powerful list that can make for uber powerful attacks and information gathering.  However, I have used the book since its release and never encountered a problem that "broke" the game.  Still, as you will see, some combos are very potent, with blade runes, triggers and the ability to alter a spells type.  Imagine a teleport spell cast into a cloud form that is elemental in spell type...the worst of the combos require Lord level to achieve however.

Character Programs: there is an excellent spread sheet in the vault.  I myself use the old (and no longer available) ACG program.  With torrents and the like, you might be able to find it.

I hope to hear more from you as your game progesses and welcome to the forums.  Fresh meat is New members are always welcome.

[Usdrothek]

Concerning the Martial arts companion; Since you are all new to the game, perhaps leave it out for now. Just playing within the core rules for martial arts should still be enough to satisfy anyone who wants to go down the road of being a monk/warrior monk.

I found the martial arts companion could push things 'out of hand', with all the extra abilities and styles etc.

Best of luck with your foray into RMSS. Its a great game and I know you and your players will have fun.

[markc]

  One thing you may want to do is have a house rule that you get 1 melee attack per 10 ranks and 1 missile attack per 15 ranks of skill in that weapon. Or you could break it out by skill amount saying every 60 points of skill you get 1 attack or something like that. The reason why using the total skill number is that it is hard to just rely on the number of skill ranks and not include the category ranks also.
  The reason why is that RM is different than D&D in that an attack is considered a series of thrusts, feights, etc vs D&D's multi attack game. It is one of the most common things talked about with new players to RM. It also benefits the pure arms user some over the spell users as multi-attacks balance out some of the spells at higher levels.


 You asked a lot of questions above and I will have to break them out by the numbers to give you better answered later when I have more time and can think on some good answers for you.


MDC

[Kristen Mork]

Firstly, the setting.  We are planning on using only the Core book, Spell Law, Arcane Companion, Talent Law and Arms Law.  We haven't made characters yet, so I don't know that anyone will want to use the Martial Arts companion, but if so, should we?  I have seen many people say it is too powerful, unbalanced etc.  First game, first group, trying to keep it as simple as I can.

IMHO, Talent Law is broken.  I'd avoid that one.  Martial Arts Companion is much more balanced than Talent Law, although MAC introduces a lot of complexity that you may want to avoid.

Second, character creation software?  I found a program called Character Software companion, seems ok but not great.  I was planning on using flat 100Dev points to alleviate some of the wrangling of stats for dev point purposes, and the software doesn't support it.  Other than that, it seems ok.  I am still not 100% sure it follows the other rules, and not 100% sure I understand them well enough to know!

No comment, I use my own program that lets me customize anything I want.

Speaking of character creation, specifically skill ranks and caps.  D&D was easy in that there was a flat cap on skills based on level.  Here, for Skill X assuming a 1/5 cost, and an Occupational designation, 0 adolescent and 0 hobby ranks, I spend 6 dev points for 2 ranks, which become 6 ranks.  Then I can take a Lifestyle training package which gives me 2 ranks, for a total of 8 ranks.  Finally another training package, vocational this time, gives me 3 ranks, but I only go to 10, as a TP can't raise past 10?  So is it best to have them "buy" the TP but not add it until AFTER they spend their dev points  in order to make sure they don't buy too many ranks?  I also planned on using an optional rule , don't recall where I read it, that lets them buy ranks they skipped, letting them get caught up in a skill they ignored before, but now want to develop.

If you purchase TPs first, then the 10-rank cap rarely matters.  So, the character could start with 11 ranks by purchasing TP #1, then TP #2, then purchasing 2 x 3 = 6 ranks with straight DP.

EDIT: Forgot a question...Ambush, melee only or ranged as well assuming the basic other requirements are met?  I have one for sure possibly two people wanting to play ranged attack, missile or thrown, style characters.  I am not sure they can ambush, I didn't see melee only specifically, but wanted to be certain before 6 games in, the world comes crashing down as rogues, magents and the like are killing everyone off from the shadows across the street.

Ambush was intended to be for melee attacks only.  In School of Hard Knocks, there's an option to use missile weapons with Ambush, albeit at big penalties.

[arcadayn]

I agree with skipping the MAC and swapping in RMFRP CL for TL.  SOHK (also for RMFRP) is invaluable.  The skills are much better described in SOHK than the RMSS core book.  It also gives you example difficulty levels for every skill.

For character creation software, I'm a huge fan of Jon Dale's Excel spreadsheet in the Vault.  It already contains all of the professions, races, and skills from all of the RMSS/RMFRP books, but if you know your way around Excel, it is easily customizable.

[mocking bird]

Third, or perhaps fourth?, getting SoHK.  It fleshes out a lot of the skills and has lots of examples in their use.

I would put an asterisk by the arcane companion for beginning players.  While I really like the book, it does take a lot of experience to figure out how the spells work.  For example the arcanist essentially modifies spell casting so it takes a bit to realize what the class can actually do.  Likewise the wizard is mainly a class to mess up other spell casters.

Instead I would suggest the channeling companion which has several neat classes, mythic, and way to customize priests.

Regarding ambush/sniping - nix the precision talent right off the bat.  If you wonder why imagine adding 20+ ranks to each crit on each melee attack by 10th level.  Even more if you tinker a bit more creating the character.  Then at range even depending on how you interpret the talent and compare the ambush skill in the core book vs SoHK vs talent law.  (It might have gotten fixed in RMFRP)

In conclusion 100dp a level seems like a lot.  I would predict you ending up with a lot of pure casters with tons of spells, semi's with a half tone and even fewer, if any, non's.

[rdanhenry]

I'm using 90 DPs and find that it still requires some difficult choices. I don't think 100 would be too many, if you are using the full RMSS skill set. If you don't make full use of the skill list, then it could be too many.

[mordenkhai]

Ok, update time.

So far the party appears to be: High Elf Magent (focussed on missile), Dwarven Paladin, Magician, Cleric (cause you have to have a healer right?) and 1 unknown.

We haven't had a session since the decision so no characters are made, though the magent got through Adolescent development.  Noone has felt overwhelmed yet, which is a good thing.  We are using Character Law, with some talents being banned, Blessed by War God (seriously?!) and anything which gives inherent magical abilities (flight, force fields).

I am starting to populate the world with classes, having to transition from my home brewed continent in Forgotten Realms I am just converting the NPCs as needed.  This way the new campaign is set after the last and they get to see the nation they began has grown into a world power, albeit no longer under the players control.  They seemed most pleased with this decision and setup.

A couple people mentioned SoHK, so I will read that this week and get to know it before I send it out.  Having solid skill descriptions would be good as I already get questions about specific skills and what they can be used for.

New question: In the previous campaign we ended with the gnomes discovery of gunpowder and the beginning of the age of cannons.   Even though I am moving time ahead 400ish years, I am only planning to advance it to 1400s era Italian pistol which I found rules for.  Looking over the chart, it doesn't seem to be very powerful, which is fine with me.  Has anyone used these old guns before and though they were safe then found out suddenly that they were overpowering everything?  Just looking for some real experience with them.

I haven't checked out the channeling companion, but will do so.  I am concerned that the cleric, as the healer, doesn't have enough fun stuff to do, any thoughts?

I have downloaded the spreadsheet, and will check it out tomorrow when its not 2am!

[DangerMan]

I haven't checked out the channeling companion, but will do so.  I am concerned that the cleric, as the healer, doesn't have enough fun stuff to do, any thoughts?

IMO the healer or cleric is probably most suited for a player that doesnt mind playing a support character. Both have good healing spells - the healer can mend as good as any damage, the cleric got his/hers advantage in the life mastery spell list. However, none of them have very good fighting abilities, the priest being most suited with its relatively low developemt cost and professions bonus. Then again the healer can get the haste spell, which is very powerful. If you gonna play a healer-type, and take part in battle, either way, you'll have to spend vast amounts of development points and probably talent points to make the character more apt.

We just recently started a new campaign and I wanted to play a healer of some sort, but I also love a good fight. I ended up, after long and careful consideration, to play the Lay healer. There you got metal armour, weapon development cost at 6, and haste spells. Healing spells are good, though many requier an actual operation.

The Healer IMHO is probably best played as a pure support character. Weapons and armor is expensive, spells are more costly and having three primary stats make for less options on stats. I love the character concept, with its dark sides, but I think the fights would become boring.

[yammahoper]

Ok, update time.

So far the party appears to be: High Elf Magent (focussed on missile), Dwarven Paladin, Magician, Cleric (cause you have to have a healer right?) and 1 unknown.

We haven't had a session since the decision so no characters are made, though the magent got through Adolescent development.  Noone has felt overwhelmed yet, which is a good thing.  We are using Character Law, with some talents being banned, Blessed by War God (seriously?!) and anything which gives inherent magical abilities (flight, force fields).

I am starting to populate the world with classes, having to transition from my home brewed continent in Forgotten Realms I am just converting the NPCs as needed.  This way the new campaign is set after the last and they get to see the nation they began has grown into a world power, albeit no longer under the players control.  They seemed most pleased with this decision and setup.

A couple people mentioned SoHK, so I will read that this week and get to know it before I send it out.  Having solid skill descriptions would be good as I already get questions about specific skills and what they can be used for.

New question: In the previous campaign we ended with the gnomes discovery of gunpowder and the beginning of the age of cannons.   Even though I am moving time ahead 400ish years, I am only planning to advance it to 1400s era Italian pistol which I found rules for.  Looking over the chart, it doesn't seem to be very powerful, which is fine with me.  Has anyone used these old guns before and though they were safe then found out suddenly that they were overpowering everything?  Just looking for some real experience with them.

I haven't checked out the channeling companion, but will do so.  I am concerned that the cleric, as the healer, doesn't have enough fun stuff to do, any thoughts?

I have downloaded the spreadsheet, and will check it out tomorrow when its not 2am!

For the muskets, the book you want is Ten Million Ways to Die.  It has attack tables covering melee, missile, muskets, fire arms and futuristic weapons like lasers, blasters, plasma weapons, etc.  Best part, the tables and crits can expand your game.  For example, add spells to empty slots, like a level X Plasma Bolt.  The book is very useful.

Channeling Companion is one of the best books available, maybe the best.  MAC is also great, but I don't think it is easy to find.  I did not recommend these books initially because I wanted to only address the questions you asked, but both books offer rich detail and game enhancing rule sets.  Channeling companion provides around 50 base list to build channeling casters with, allowing amazinging variety, particularly when you pool the Cleric, Animist, Ranger and Paladin list with the others.

Lay Healers are very cool and make good martial artist.

[markc]

  I also like Arms Law Firearms for early era firearms. It is different from 10 Million Ways to Die in that it has expanded charts for firearms and not reduced/smaller MK# charts like in RM2 or like the animal size attack chart. Example the firearm in 10MWTD would list early era firearms as maybe a small attack where as the charts in AL:FA has a full OB chart like other weapons in normal arms law.


MDC

[yammahoper]

  I also like Arms Law Firearms for early era firearms. It is different from 10 Million Ways to Die in that it has expanded charts for firearms and not reduced/smaller MK# charts like in RM2 or like the animal size attack chart. Example the firearm in 10MWTD would list early era firearms as maybe a small attack where as the charts in AL:FA has a full OB chart like other weapons in normal arms law.


MDC

Fire arms in TMWTD have their own attack table.  There is one pistol table for muskets and table for musket rifles.  Sometimes there are suggested attack maximums in the lower left corner, but they are not built into the tables.

In addition, TMWTD offers AT columns for RM AT's and Space Master AT's.  These SM armor types make excellent magical armors with or without SM.

[Chris Seal]

New question: In the previous campaign we ended with the gnomes discovery of gunpowder and the beginning of the age of cannons.   Even though I am moving time ahead 400ish years, I am only planning to advance it to 1400s era Italian pistol which I found rules for.  Looking over the chart, it doesn't seem to be very powerful, which is fine with me.  Has anyone used these old guns before and though they were safe then found out suddenly that they were overpowering everything?  Just looking for some real experience with them.

Hi mordenkhai,

I, like you, converted a group of D&D players to RM with primitive firearms. I used Weapons Law: Firearms in my game and limited the players to ME 3 for pistols and ME 6 for Muskets (IIRC). I found that it was not unbalancing. Generally speaking, the pistoleer would fire once at the beginning of combat with his pistols then draw his longsword.

I like the implementation of firearms, to my mind it works as well or better than any other fantasy system, I have tried, which attempted to "bolt-on" firearms.

On another note, the most frustrating thing my players found, was the three round casting time and the relatively low power of lowbie casters. Its something to watch out for in my experience. I pushed my pure casters towards Quarterstaves. They tend to hit most ATs easily and do OK damage which makes them an ideal weapon for those first few levels.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Chris

[markc]

New question: In the previous campaign we ended with the gnomes discovery of gunpowder and the beginning of the age of cannons.   Even though I am moving time ahead 400ish years, I am only planning to advance it to 1400s era Italian pistol which I found rules for.  Looking over the chart, it doesn't seem to be very powerful, which is fine with me.  Has anyone used these old guns before and though they were safe then found out suddenly that they were overpowering everything?  Just looking for some real experience with them.

Hi mordenkhai,

I, like you, converted a group of D&D players to RM with primitive firearms. I used Weapons Law: Firearms in my game and limited the players to ME 3 for pistols and ME 6 for Muskets (IIRC). I found that it was not unbalancing. Generally speaking, the pistoleer would fire once at the beginning of combat with his pistols then draw his longsword.

I like the implementation of firearms, to my mind it works as well or better than any other fantasy system, I have tried, which attempted to "bolt-on" firearms.

On another note, the most frustrating thing my players found, was the three round casting time and the relatively low power of lowbie casters. Its something to watch out for in my experience. I pushed my pure casters towards Quarterstaves. They tend to hit most ATs easily and do OK damage which makes them an ideal weapon for those first few levels.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Chris

 Great advice.
MDC

[mordenkhai]

IMO the healer or cleric

Just wanted to clarify, my newbness is apparent once I explain that I meant the class cleric in the role of healing, as opposed to the classes cleric and healer in RM.  That said, thanks for the info, I will check that out.  Any options for the character to participate other than simply waiting for injuries would be good.

I'll have to really read this Channeling companion and see what other options or avenues it opens up, thanks for the tips.

[mordenkhai]

Hi mordenkhai,

I, like you, converted a group of D&D players to RM with primitive firearms. I used Weapons Law: Firearms in my game and limited the players to ME 3 for pistols and ME 6 for Muskets (IIRC). I found that it was not unbalancing. Generally speaking, the pistoleer would fire once at the beginning of combat with his pistols then draw his longsword.

I like the implementation of firearms, to my mind it works as well or better than any other fantasy system, I have tried, which attempted to "bolt-on" firearms.

On another note, the most frustrating thing my players found, was the three round casting time and the relatively low power of lowbie casters. Its something to watch out for in my experience. I pushed my pure casters towards Quarterstaves. They tend to hit most ATs easily and do OK damage which makes them an ideal weapon for those first few levels.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Chris

Thanks, from what you are saying I am liking the balance of the firearms.   I want them to be an add on to a character, not really the focus.  Even the Magent has so far not planned on using them.  I planned to have them be expensive to begin with then slowly drive down the price until they become a bit more adopted, but again I don't want a gunslinger.

Well time to get to reading!

Thanks again to everyone for the input!

[providence13]

This may have been said already...
For D&D players, I would recommend Linear Stat Gains when they level.
Most of the yo-yo'ing of stats balances out by 3rd to 5th level, but at early levels, it's hard enough just to stay alive without your Strength/Constitution dropping a few points. "You must have been sick this level."

Also, you might want to go through a standard combat before you actually play. This should let them know how important it is to stay out of combat unless absolutely necessary.

[markc]

IMO the healer or cleric

Just wanted to clarify, my newbness is apparent once I explain that I meant the class cleric in the role of healing, as opposed to the classes cleric and healer in RM.  That said, thanks for the info, I will check that out.  Any options for the character to participate other than simply waiting for injuries would be good.

I'll have to really read this Channeling companion and see what other options or avenues it opens up, thanks for the tips.

 Clerics of a God of War are powerful foes.
MDC

[mocking bird]

Another thing to look at regarding the rm vs D&D cleric is the repulsions list.  RM clerics are much more saucy vs undead.

You will also find out eventually with the advent of the life mastery list and appropriate other healing lists it becomes fairly difficult to permanently kill a character short of dain bramage/decapitation or incineration.