Author Topic: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook  (Read 17894 times)

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Offline kasalin

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2011, 08:22:42 PM »
Another idea I had concerning skills was the following
.....

Two new categories created called Technical and Awareness.
Perception to be moved Awareness category.

I like the Technical category because it would be nice to have a separate category for more specialized skills in certain fields and Awareness because in my mind Perception should never cost 2 ergo this category will never be a favored category.....

What skills would you include in each?  There needs to be enough in each to make it worth having a separate category, especially if its favored for someone.  Having 5 skills in a favored category a la Concentration is not desirable.
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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2011, 11:16:02 PM »
Actually those two categories are not favored by any profession which was the idea with the skill Perception anyways. And Technical is just a placeholder for adding skills that are more akin to skills from Rolemaster's: Technical Vocational or Technical Professional.

Offline Pat

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2011, 08:45:50 AM »
To limit multi-classing (or to not make it as attractive), how about keeping the same DP's of your old class skills? So a fighter multi-classing to mage would get the choice of access to the mage spells or sense magic talent but spell costs would remain the same at 4 dps, artistic would remain at 4 dps etc. Fighter skills would remain the same 2 dps for athletic, combat etc.

This would last until the secondary class exceeds the first then the dp cost would be as the new "main" class. E.g. A multi-class fighter/mage would have the dps as above and the cost would remain as fighter class until the mage level exceeds the fighter where dp cost reverts to the mage class.

This would help use additional character dps and make the player think more strategically when leveling. Also, at higher levels when players are more likely to multi-class, dp cost becomes an issue. (Does a level 9 fighter really want to invest the next 10 levels to mage to get the dp bonus? Or would he prefer to spend 4 dps on spells? Also, if he invests the nest next 10 levels as a mage what weapon bonuses must he forego?)

I would also suggest that all classes have only 5 favoured categories so that classes such as Thief and Rogue don't get abused.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2011, 09:39:06 AM »
If you are going to go with that approach, then change DP's to be based upon Stat levels rather than profession.  There is therefore no impact on your skill costs for your profession.

Professions would simply drive special abilities, and most special abilities are somehow available as talents anyway, therefore this leads right to the profession-less systems that are often discussed on these boards (see the recent TGC article).

These changes wipe out abuse and make the system easier to use.  But just realize that doing this would also probably require putting a max on each stat ability, otherwise people will simply max out their stats to drive down costs, etc.  which quickly eliminates the character and makes it a optimization model.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2011, 10:11:21 AM »
Unless you do a flat number of DPs per level, regardless of stats, profession or anything else, which is already happening.

Personally I also prefer to give DPs instead of experience, and ignore levels altogether. I suspect in the long run it will have a beneficial effect on play as well ("Ooo, nicely done, have a development point") because it puts the action/reward thing in very immediate terms.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2011, 10:17:58 AM »
So you've gone all of the way to profession-less, level-less....  Nice... :)

Do you restrict the use of those DP's in any way?
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2011, 01:15:46 PM »
Only in the sense of max ranks. But if you have a flat number of DPs per "level", then when you throw the levels out you just tie max ranks to total DPs (since I threw out experience points as well) instead. If you would normally allow 45 DPs per level and a rise in max ranks of 3 per level, then a beginning character starts with 90 DPs, max ranks of 6 (90/15) and gets +1 to his max ranks every 15 DPs (45/3). If you allow 50 DPs per level, then call it +1 to max ranks every 17 DPs (50/3=16 2/3) and it works out about the same.

What makes it work is making sure max ranks always rise slightly faster than the player collects DPs to max out skills with, that way he'll always be compromising because he never has all the DPs for all the skill ranks he wants.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2011, 01:25:40 PM »
OK, took me a few reads to understand, but I got it.

Effectively I was wondering if you awarded the DPs for some great negotiation situation, could they then apply the DP to a combat weapon or spell that had nothing to do with where the DP came from - and it seems your answer is "Yes, provided they haven't maxed out that skill"

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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2011, 01:41:20 PM »
Yep, that's pretty much it. I don't worry about the "context" of the DP because unless he keeps the relevant skill to at least the "competent" level (if not maxed out) anyway, then the situation that awarded him that particular DP is gonna be a statistical outlier over the course of the game. It's self correcting, so I don't feel the need to mess with it.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2011, 01:43:01 PM »
In short, either he ends up spending DPs on influence and negotiation skills anyhow, or I occasionally give him a DP for an exploding die roll. I'm good with that.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2011, 01:13:11 PM »
Any further tweak requests for the HARP Fantasy core rulebook?

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.drivethrurpg.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline docem

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2011, 12:58:22 AM »
these are the house rules we use. they include ideas from sources such as the guild companion web site, HARP faq, the forums & our own stuff. it does show my groups origins in ad&d 1st ed & basic d&d so the rules we use arent for everyone. the collection includes some rules changes we found difficult to apply or weren't listed in the HARP rules, so some of these clarifications may be useful in the reprint [or maybe not!].

again - not for everyones taste!

Appearance STAT
   Roll % [not open ended] & modify by the characters PR modifier. It is a reflection of the characters beauty [or ugliness]. It application is determined by the GM. It has no direct game mechanics impact. It may be affected by in game events such as massive facial trauma – such as being breathed on directly by a blue dragon......

Human Characters
   Instead of the Professional Adaptability ability at first level a human character may instead take the Skill Flexibility Talent per HARP SF.

Gnomes/Dwarf
   The Dwarf ability of Greater Dark Vision & the Gnome ability of Lesser Dark Vision is incorrectly described on p20-21. Instead use the description on p74 under Talents.

Two Weapon Combo
   When using this skill for two weapons from the same group, or the same weapon in both hands apply the following. If using non-identical weapons from the same group take the Talent from Martial Law ~ Multiple Weapon Proficiency [DP5] for the off-hand weapon. The weapon group skill that they all belong to must have a minimum of x1.5 Ranks of the Two Weapon Combo skill. One attack  with each weapon is made per normal for the Two Weapon Combo in HARP. This rule is different to Martial Law & replaces it.

Initiative
   Roll 1d10, rerolling 10s adding the total together. Init is penalised by Man Pens from criticals rather than reducing QUI modifier.

Fumbles
   When a character fumbles a skill or maneuver, they subtract the number of ranks that they have in the fumbled skill or spell from the roll used to determine the effects of the fumble. This can never reduce the fumble roll below a 1.

Development Points
   Each level a character gains they gain a minimum of 50 DP. If the DP they would gain from their stats is greater than 50 they instead gain the higher number.

Healing
   A Healing roll to stop bleeding takes 1d10+10 rounds when healing yourself & halve that amount when healing someone else. The bleeding is stopped midpoint during the total time. If the healing is interrupted in the second half of the time taken the bleeding resumes in 1d10+10 rounds.

Stun Effects
   Instead of the Stun RR being Stamina RR 150 + 5/each round of Stun greater than the first, it is now RR 100 + 10/each round beyond the first. The character may roll once each round to break a Stun at the current RR.

Overcasting
   A character can attempt to cast a spell they do not have sufficient ranks to cast, or may attempt a scaled version of a spell they lack the ranks for that level of scaling. Fumble range is increased to 1-10 from the normal 1-5 when Overcasting. The spell casting roll manoeuvre roll suffers a -10 per rank the the caster lacks that is necessary for the casting of the spell. This stacks with any of the -5/PP penalty for scaling a spell. So a caster that is attempting a spell that would normally have a -20 to the roll for +4PP worth of scaling that they lack 2 ranks from the minimum required would suffer a total penalty of -40 [-20 from scaling & -20 from 2 PP of overcasting]. In addition the fumble range would be 1-10.

Handling Subskills
   The following skills & their subskills are handled differently with this rule change. Animal Handling, Beastmastery, Foraging/Survival, Riding & Signalling. Instead of each specialisation of the above skills being learned as a separate skill they are instead learnt as one skill with the player nominating one focus specialisation, all other focuses are treated as -20 to the manoeuvre roll.  So a character takes Riding with Horses as his focus. With all other animals he applies the Riding skill at -20. A character can change the focus of their skill with one week of training.

Speak with Normal Animals Talent
   When taking this Talent choose one type of animal as it states. The Talent is changed in that the character may converse with other types of animals at -20. The character may take the Talent Multiple Subskill proficiency in this Talent to remove the -20 penalty. This does not apply to Speak with Magical Creatures Talent.

Sub-Spells
   Just as with the subskills described above any spell that has multiple forms [especially those of elemental nature such as Ball or Bolt], they are learned as a single subspell focus. All other elemental forms no longer need to be learned as separate skills rather they can be performed with the same skill at -20. It takes one week of retraining to change the subspell focus of the spell. For example a player may learn Fire Bolt then perform all other Bolts at -20 with the Fire Bolt skill. A directly opposed element is cast at -40. This also applies to Summoning & related spells where the spell states that a type of elemental or demon must be selected. All other beings can still be used with such spells at -20 or at -40 if of the directly opposed element.

Runes
   When activating Runes the attack modifier is equal to Tiny +40, increasing by +20 each step. This is the same as traps per p.78 HARP. The RR for such Runes is always +50 then rolled on the RR table. Crystal Runes use the number of PP of the Rune as Ranks. When either form is activated no stat modifiers are added to the above modifiers. The stat modifiers only apply to the activation of the Rune.

PP Adders/Spell Adders
   Only one Spell or PP Adder item may be attuned to at one time. It takes one 8 hour sleep cycle to detune such an item before another may be attuned to.

Holy Ground
   On such ground that a creature considers to be Holy such as a priest in their own church, casters can handle an extra +1PP/Round. While those that would be harmed or inhibited on such ground such as a demon on the same church ground, may handle -1PP/Round. So the Priest takes 1R per 6PP of spell while the demon takes 1R per 4PP of spell. On particularly Holy ground such as the main Cathedral of a faith or a ceremonial site that has been desecrated with many sacrifices the modifier may be  increased to 2.

Tough Hide
   Any creature with Tough Hide that wears armour has an additional Movement Penalty equal to the MnMP Fitted for the Armour with equal DB. So for a +40 Tough Hide any Armour worn would also cause a -10MP. This may not be reduced by armour skill.

Manoeuvre Penalties
   MP from criticals now apply to all maneoevre rolls regardless of that skills statistics. The MP in full also applies to initiative. The initiative modifiers for endurance damage to initiative are no longer used. The effect it has on DB is unchanged. Do not apply MP to RR nor does the existing methods of Armour MP change.

Armoured Casting
   A casters Casting Penalty can be reduced with this skill. The lowest skill bonus of Armour or Armoured Casting skill is used. SD/Agi skill. CP of worn armour is reduced by the total skill bonus in this skill divided by 20, always rounded down. Granted mana casters with Combat as favoured group divide by 10. It is a Physical skill.

Crossbows
   The crossbow details below supplant those in the HARP rules.
Wristband Crossbow 70sp TP 10' PB+5 reload 5r.
Hand Crossbow 50sp SP 30' PB+15 reload 3r.
Light Crossbow 11sp MP 50' PB+25 reload 5r.
Heavy Crossbow 25sp LP 70' PB+35 reload 10r.
Arbalest 50sp HP 90' PB+45 reload 30r.

Detect Spell Casting
   A spell being cast may be detected by making a Medium Perception roll or a Light Sense Magic roll. The observer must be aware of the casting process to make this roll & such skills/talents as Combat Perception, Combat Awareness & Intuition are relevant. This roll is penalised by a caster who either has the Talent Subtle Casting or either applies the penalties from Table 4.1 p25 College of Magics for Casting Styles. So a Gestural/Verbal caster decides to whisper to hide their casting attempt taking the listed -20 penalty, any attempt to detect the casting process would also be reduced by -20. This does not apply to Sense Magic attempts of detection.

Power Projection
Mystical Arts - In/SD - All or Nothing
New Uses of the existing skill.

Assess Mana ~ Hard Difficulty ~ by touching a target & taking a single round the targets maximum or current pp is determined. The GM makes the roll secretly & the result is read off the percentage column with 100%+ meaning successful determination. Less than 100% is the accuracy of the reading with the rolls second die reading being even meaning low & odd meaning high to the indicated % accuracy. Example a base roll 13 + skill of 54 = 67 with -20 for hard is 47. this reads as 40% or 60% error, the odd end number [roll of 13] means erred high. So the amount of pp of the target is determined to be 60% higher than actually is. An unwilling target may oppose the roll with a RRW.

Project Mana ~ Very Hard ~ you may channel mana from a target to add to your own or channel your mana to a target to add to their own. You state an amount of pp to move & make an all or nothing VH roll 100+. The process takes 1r/5pp. increasing the flow rate incurs a -5/1pp/r increase. If the attempt fails by 1-20 then it is still successful but more or less pp than planned is moved. If the end total is even then less pp is moved, if odd more pp is moved. In either case 2d10 pp is the variation amount. If the  If the amount of pp drawn from a target exceeds their current pp they take 1d10hit/excess pp. If you absorb more pp than your maximum you take 1d10hits/excess pp. Excess pp is shed at a rate of 1pp/minute back to the normal maximum. The maximum number of planned pp transferable [total in any direction & any number of projections] in a 24 hour period is equal to the casters Power Projection skill total. Variation from near success as described above may increase this beyond that maximum however. An unwilling target may oppose the roll with a RRW. A victim may be drained of more pp than they have as a deliberate act of draining their hits as pp, this may kill them, this is obviously an evil act.

Talents to affect above

Tap Projected Mana
This talent enables you to use projected mana either channelled to you by another or taken from another by you. If you do not have this talent you may not access projected mana without severe disruption to your mana matrix. You reduce the difficulty of Project Mana above by one step to Hard, in addition any hits caused by excess mana absorption is reduced to 1hit/pp. You may choose however to deliberately cause mana disruption damage & maintain the 1d10hit/pp excess on your victim.
DP Cost: 20.

Cascading Fear
   per HARP Bazaar.

CLERICAL SPELL MASTERY
When taken, this talent allows the character to add all the selectable spells from the Clerical lists presented below [in their particular gods section] as spells in their sphere. Normally a cleric chooses 5 of the 15 suggested spells. Obviously one must be a cleric to take this talent.
Cost: 20

CLOAK CASTING LESSER
This talent enables the caster to scale any spell with a special scaling option. +2PP scaling causes a -20 to any attempt to detect the casting using Sense Magic. This may be applied as scaling only once. This does not penalise attempts to mundanely detect the casting process via a normal Perception roll. This penalty also applies to any attempt to use the Detect Signature spell against the casting. If the Detect Signature spell fails by 1-20 the caster of the Detect Signature knows the spell has been masked.
Cost: 5

CLOAK CASTING GREATER
To take this talent you must know Cloak Casting Lesser. It grants another scaling option. +4PP scaling causes a -40 to any attempt to detect the casting via Sense Magic.  It functions as Lesser Cloak Casting but is more powerful a cloak. It penalises any use of the Detect Signature spell against the casting by -40. At the time of casting the caster specifies a false Signature which they have learned via the Study Target spell. They must have used Detect Signature spell on a casting by the studied caster. If a Detect Signature spell made against a spell with Greater Cloak Casting applied to it fails by 1-20 the caster thinks they have succeeded but in fact they have detected the false Signature. If it fails by 21-40 then the caster knows the spell being studied has been masked.
Cost: 10

MULTIPLE SUBSPELL PROFICIENCY
This talent may be taken multiple times, in the same spell or for another spell. When taken the player nominates one spell that has multiple forms [expecially those of elemental nature such as Ball or Bolt]. In that spell all non-focus subspells reduce the penalty by -10. The normal subspell penalty is -20 without this Talent. The Talent may be taken twice per spell to negate the penalty. The opposing spell element suffers an additional -20 penalty. Clerics may not be able to cast this opposing element depending on their faith & sphere of worship.
Cost: 5

SUBTLE CASTING
This talent may be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the character chooses one of the Casting Styles they know. The penalties for casting from that Casting Style per Table 4.1 College of Magics p25 are reduced by half. This doe not include a failed Mental Focus, Singing or Play Instrument skill roll for those Styles. This talent enables the caster to cast in such a way that it is harder to detect that they are casting a spell. The caster may penalise their casting roll by an amount equal to half the listed penalties on Table 4.1, any attempt to mundanely detect their casting attempt is penalised by double that amount. So a character with Subtle Casting Verbal could whisper at -10 or not speak at -25 causing a -20 or -50 to Perception rolls respectively. If they also knew Subtle Casting Gestural they could further penalise their roll by -25 for an additional -50 Perception penalty. These penalties do not apply to Sense Magic rolls to detect casting.
Cost: 10

Tattoo Magic
Tattoos can be inscribed on the skin of a being & imbued with magic. They can be placed upon living, undead & constructs as long as the being itself can activate the tattoo which is done by conscious thought &/or touching the tattoo. Tattoo magic follows all the rules for Blood Magic from College of Magics except where noted below. Only those spells able to be taken with Blood Magic may be inscribed as tattoos. The Active Blood Magic Talent is used except it is called Tattoo Magic [there is no Latent Tattoo Magic hence the Active is dropped]. Tattoos can be taken at any level unlike Blood Magic as long as a Magical Tattooist can be found & is willing to undertake the work. Each time the Tattoo Magic is taken in the same spell the user gains 3/day uses, this is contrary to Blood Magic where taking the same Blood Magic more than once grants only a second use per day after the initial 3. The DP cost of Tattoo Magic is 2xPP cost of the spell plus gold cost as described below. A being may have as many DP in Tattoo Magic as their CON stat [not modifier].
The process of inscribing Tattoo Magic is as follows.
1. A Tattoo roll is made to create the base tattoo. Tattooing is an Artistic Skill governed by In/In. It is a -20 subskill of Painting [HARP SF]. Like any subskill the character can take the subskill as the primary & apply the -20 to the ruling skill so in this case a character could take Tattooing at no skill roll penalty & Painting skill rolls are at -20. A Medium roll must be made. If this roll is failed the tattoo is incapable of supporting the magical matrix & can not be used. The tattoo however still counts towards the limit based on CON using the DP it would have cost. The tattoo costs 1gp/DP due to the fine inks required. It requires 1hour/PP to inscribe, this may be done over any time frame.
2. Imbue Exotic from College of Magics is used to enchant the tattoos. The PP cost of the Imbue Exotic spell is equal to 12 if the DP cost of the tattoo is 5 or less. If greater than 5DP then +1PP scaling per DP>5. If someone else inscribes the tattoo then additional +10 scaling. The casting time is 5min/total PP of Imbue Exotic spell. The number of Imprints required is 1+ 2xPP of Imbue Exotic spell with a minimum time of 2 days.
3. No PP or Spell Adders may be used with Imbuing.
4. Increase Duration & Increase Imprint scaling options do not count towards the total PP cost of Imbue Exotic for time & other calculations.
5. 1 Imprint must be completed successfully each day. See College of Magics for more details under Creating Permanent Items p111-114.
6. After final Imprint a Power Projection roll is made. If created own tattoo -20, if someone else then -40. The Power Projection takes 5 min/PP cost of Imbue Exotic Spell. The PP required for the Projection is equal to the PP of the Imbue Exotic spell & the creator must have as many ranks in Power Projection as the PP cost of the Imbue Exotic spell.
7. Just as certain Blood Magic spells require developing a skill Use Blood Magic Ability, tattoo magic of the same spells also requires the skill Use Tattoo Magic to be developed. Identical in function to the Blood magic variant.
8. The total purchase cost of the Tattoo is (25*scaling PP (treat as 1 if 0))*Imprints required. This is in addition to the Tattoo cost.
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Offline Pat

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2011, 07:24:13 AM »
1. Magic armour does not stack. It seems silly to me that a multiclass magic character can cast the following: Tree Skin (max +60), Mage Armour (max +60), Stoneskin (max +60), Celestial armour (max unlimited), Steel Skin (max +60), Shadow Armour (max +60). Yes you would need a lot of classes to be able to cast all these spells but at high level most, if not all, characters are multiclasssed. This means that theoretically a character could have more than 300 DB from armour without spells such as Shield, Blur or Boost Quickness. (If a character has Rune Mastery of high enough level, he could cast each spell in 1 round without any PP cost.)
A character with stacked magic armour cast could walk into the middle of an army and cast fireballs on himself as he's attacked by multiple foes with an expectation of never being hit by attacks but doing significant damage to an enemy force.

2. Remove the minimum maneauver penalty for armour. In the current format it really disadvantages heavy armour wearers as they are penalised twice. Firstly, by having their quickness bonus reduced and secondly by having their OB reduced. This means that a fighter in full plate loses 20 DB for quickness (if the stat is high enough) and loses some of his biggest advantage in OB. To me this restricts the amount of parry that can be used. For example, if my fighter has +20 DB bonus for quickness I can either a) wear full plate with +60 DB, have no quickness bonus and be at -20 to OB or b) wear soft leather armour with +20 DB, have +20 for quickness and put 20 permanently into parry. Both end up at +60 DB, have the same OB bonus and there are no maneuver penalties if wearing leather. (Yes there are many assumptions in the example such as assuming 1 foe, quickness bonus etc but I'm sure you can see my point.)

3. The Spell Shadow Step should be removed, watered down or have a counter. A character with this spell and scaling options is vitrually undetectable. This spell makes boss fights irrelevant if the caster has enough ranks in ambush to kill bosses in 1 round.

Offline Zhaleskra

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2011, 12:20:25 PM »
I'm not even a mathematician, and even I associate the slash with division. So for marking which stat bonuses to use: "stat1+stat2", or "stat1, stat2", and in the case of using the same stat twice: "statx2".
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Offline Molochthethird

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2011, 12:51:48 PM »
I am new to HARP, and have recently decided to introduce it to my players, and during my study of the game I found:
 I felt that there where lacking more social oriented skills, such as intimidation, seduction, leadership and others, and with a rank oriented function such as the lore skills, and also felt a need of a technical skill area, with skills such as mathematics, science, mechanic, crafts (yes, removing it from the general skills), etc.
 I feel the localization oriented damage and critical charts are a quite interesting advancement and that it doesn't make the combats too clumsy (even with the adittion of the armor usage effects), but their range seems scarce, and their linear scale makes them a little boring, being necessary to introduce more death or unconsciousness oriented criticals inbetween, not needing an 80-100 to kill your foe instantly. Also it would be interesting to increase the critical range table to 150-200, giving just positive bonuses the sizes of the weapons.
 It also would be interesting to set a core of rules making possible to create new playable races.
 Thank you for your time and for creating such a great game!

 

Offline calmacil

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2011, 06:36:03 AM »
I really like alot of the ideas behind Harp, but i find them too generous. I'm not keen on players have an elemental ball at level 1.

I was thinking of changing the max ranks. It's a simple rule that will prevent PC's becomming too powerful early on. Would this work? or can you think of problems i'd encounter?

Level 1, max rank = 4
Level 2, max rank = 6
Level 3, max rank = 8
etc

This would mean that PC's can have elemental ball at level 2 (max of tiny size)
Small at lvl 3, med at lvl 4, large at lvl 5, huge at lvl 6.
Assuming the Mage max's on that spell

Currently the max ranks are 6, 9, 12, 15..... which means PC's can have the huge elemental ball at lvl 4

« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 06:42:35 AM by calmacil »

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2011, 08:13:55 AM »
Simply because it's limited to Tiny size, I'm okay with it as is. I'm okay with 3 rank progressions per level instead of changing to 2 as well. To be sure, I don't have a zillion hours of play time to back up my impressions... yet... but so far my impressions are that what can be expected from a Tiny attack is "pffft", basically enough damage to use as flying insect killer, enough damage to use as vermin control because all the rats and squirrels and such will run away... not enough damage to kill anything substantial, unless you get incredibly lucky (always a possibility to be accounted for in any ICE game.)

If my apprentice is some kid who still has this fantasy in his head of being able to throw lightning bolts and fireballs and such? Yes, as his master by the time he's 1st level I'll have expected him to have learned an elemental ball. He can't put any 'oomph' into it, for which I'm thankful since he doesn't have any skill in controlling it either. That's why I demanded he learn it now, so he can hurt himself a few times before he has the ability to kill himself outright, and perhaps learn some respect for the power he's handling.

So much for story logic. I'm good with it, it works.

In terms of mechanics, keep in mind that the fewer ranks/level you can get in something given X number of DPs/level, the more the desire to spend every DP you get forces sameness into the characters regardless of profession, etc. Raising the ranks/level limit without raising the number of DPs/level allows the character to have awesome skill at low level, yes... but only by sacrificing competence somewhere else.

 ;)

Given all that, I think that if you're going to cut ranks/level to 2, you'd almost have to cut DPs/level by some figure in order to avoid cookie cutter characters.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2011, 08:44:58 AM »
GOF - Excellent observations - I am in full agreement with all of it.

The other thing to consider is that this reduction from 3 to 2 would not only impact spells, but every other skill. Expect the power level for your non-spellcasters to reduce significantly also, and this would lead to an even greater desire to spread those DPs into skills that you probably would not have developed otherwise (creating the cookie-cutter effect that was already mentioned).  This also makes those professions with a wider span of favored skill categories more desirable and tips the balance between professions further (something that is already being looked at).

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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2011, 09:45:23 AM »
And I'm not saying such things can't be tweaked, either. I'm just saying you have to keep in mind that it's all interconnected, that you can't adjust just one thing. Change max ranks/level and you also change the ratio of possible ranks that can be bought in a level to number of DPs available to buy them. In short, it's a much more sweeping change than it appears to be at first glance.
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Offline calmacil

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Re: Tweaks for HARP Fantasy core rulebook
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2011, 02:39:25 AM »
but so far my impressions are that what can be expected from a Tiny attack is "pffft", basically enough damage to use as flying insect killer


Given all that, I think that if you're going to cut ranks/level to 2, you'd almost have to cut DPs/level by some figure in order to avoid cookie cutter characters.
A tiny elemental ball is a bit better than that.
Say it's a fireball, best result is.... "22 hits, stunned 4 rounds, bleeds 1 per round"  ,and that's to every NPC within a 10ft radius. Not bad for a level 1 PC, and he'll be able to cast that spell lots of times. (the spellcaster example in the book has 61 power points with 1 rank. Let's assume he maxes out, that's 86 PP, that means he can cast fireball 14 times at lvl 1)

I've never heard the term "cookie cutter" before, i'm from uk. I'm guessing it means each profession a player takes follows the same route, having similar skills and abilities?  :)

I can see what you mean by the excess DP's being spent on similar skills, maybe it's the base cost of the spells that need adjusting for me. (something basic like... the base cost of spells is 3 higher?  i'll have a thnk about it)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:51:06 AM by calmacil »