Topic: Adding new spells without leveling

[kasalin]

Does anyone allow spell users to gain new spells without leveling? 

Say you have a mage who has just leveled up.  He comes across some rare book that has several spells in it.  With the book, he could easily learn the new spells, but based on the rules should have to wait until he levels again to gain access to (i.e. buy ranks in) any new spells.

How do you you handle between level new spell gains, if you allow them at all?

Do you count the new spell against the DP for the next level?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Does anyone allow spell users to gain new spells without leveling?

If a GM allows a skill to be gained between levels, I don't see too much  of a problem with allowing spells to be learned as well.

However, I would strongly recommend against allowing a spell user to gain new spells (or allowing a character to gain skill ranks, etc..) without paying for them, either via points saved up for doing so, or prepaying from DPs to gained the next time they level up.

Personally, I wouldn't allow for such in any game I ran, but that is me.

However, there is an alternative method for a character to acquire one or more spells between levels - buy them. On sheets of rune paper. Yes, they are one shot spells, but it does solve the dilemma in nice manner. 

[Thom @ ICE]

I am in agreement with Rasyr on the fact that buying skill ranks in advance of achieving levels would not be a good idea for most games.

If this would be a standard aspect of your campaign, then I would see no problem with the spellcasters putting a bank of unspent DP's on the side to learn spells as they encounter them, rather than waiting to level up.  But if you do this, I would expect the GM to either handle the access to the new spells or ensure that once the new spell is selected it should require a significant time to learn it (at least overnight).   This would prevent players from suddenly learning that one spell that they need for this immediate situation.

[-Dain-]

This brings a good question: What means "level-up" other than something about rules mechanics?
To me, it means better understanding, comprehension and practice.
You may find a book with tons of spells in it, you still need to practice. A spell is not just "a spell" that can be cast with saying a magical formula.
It is manipulating mana/ arcane magic essence and it needs practice to understand how it works. So for you PC who finds a book I would suggest him to ask him to decipher some part of it, to understand the meaning and then actually access the spell. He'll spend some in-game time to do it and hopefully reach the next level by the time he gets the spell.
He can practice, of course. Then you may allow him to try to cast it with a fumble range 10 times bigger, until he levels-up or add funny effects, for the scenario advantage (or not).
That's exactly the same with skills. What if a player spend 1 month on a ship to go from A to B. Is this time wasted? For me, he can practice and gain temporary development point until he reaches the next level. But never, the DP are given for free. It would be too easy.

I believe learning process should be harder (spells and skills) but because it is a game, rules allow to level-up quickly.

[Thom @ ICE]

Effectively leveling up is an artifical construct that allows you to record improvements in skills and abilities in a batch process rather than as skills are actually learned.

The ideas of finding a book to learn spells from, or receiving training from a master, or practicing weapon skills, or even studying lore at a library (or tavern), are all great roleplaying elements - they just don't normally lend themselves well to the game portion.  There are some people who choose to have all of that role playing going on, and then when the character levels up the only skills that they can develop are ones that they have been roleplaying during the sessions.   There are others who award DPs rather than experience points. This effectively removes the batch process and makes skill development more fluid.  When the character has earned a full level's worth of DP then they have leveled up (and receive the other level related bonuses).

Just something to consider...

[Ecthelion]

How do you you handle between level new spell gains, if you allow them at all?

We don't allow learning new spells, in the sense of adding the first few ranks in the spell skill, unless when making a new level. If you only want to allow your spell users to learn new spells when they get access to the proper books or teacher, then you could suggest your players to keep back a few of the DPs when making a new level and these DPs could be invested into new spells in the case they get access to new spells prior to the next level-up.

[The Dude]

You could always make "Learning any/all of the spells in this book" a personal goal for the character, thereby granting him XP toward the next level...

Just a thought.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Or,
You could award XP frequently, like after every day/week/whatever, and then let the PC's "spend" their XP to gain ranks.

Of course, you would have to design the XP/skill cost system yourself, but I have seen this used in another, older game, and it can work well.

[Thom @ ICE]

RWW -
We're on the same page - that's effectively the same as awarding DP's instead of XP's.
Once you get enough DP's equal to what you would normally receive at leveling up, you are considered at the next level (impact there is for stuff like level bonuses and max # of ranks).

[Mando]

If this goes in direction of a better story - char development, or if the player really wants it and it doesn't hurt something else, or if it's clear that it has to happen now in your storytelling, I would let the character learn the spells (in my games, this takes time) and "pre-spend" the DPs he will earn when comes the next level. If this hurts you a bit, or is not that important for your story, you could ask for a penalty on these DPs (spend 10, cost as 12 or 15)...

[RandalThor]

RWW -
We're on the same page - that's effectively the same as awarding DP's instead of XP's.
Once you get enough DP's equal to what you would normally receive at leveling up, you are considered at the next level (impact there is for stuff like level bonuses and max # of ranks).

This is the Earthdawn approach and I like it better. I prefer the story to drive the mechanics, not the other way around. The clunky XP/Level systems are just too unrealistic in how people learn. IMO. Take a couple of sheepherders wandering down the road to the big city. All that time they nary get into any scrape, but play in inns and taverns for beds and meals. Don't you think that they would get better at their music playing and other entertainment skills without having to get better at fighting and such? I think so. That is why I am continually drifting away from level-based systems and going for skill and abilitity based ones. Just like the more "natural" progression of abilities.

OT: I agree with Mando.

[Sazen]

Our party takes a more mixture approach to leveling up.

New skills and spells may with role-play be bought approaching level up (ie last 50-150xp) and only with majority party agreement.
Cant say because shes been carring a spell tome she has learnt spells, but casting one with a VH Spell Lore from said tome may impart some knowlage.

This also gives real rp players to keep up with min-MAX players.
One occasion was finding magic tome, decrypting said tome EH runes check, translating said runes VH written launguage check, then turning 3000 yo arcane giberish into spell formula SF Spell lore check..... Player granted 2 free ranks in spell

[Mitchiban]

When GM for Champions I found that if you keep secret XP for the Party members then those xp can be awarded at reasonable times.   

So in Harp lets say a GM keeps 2 DP per character per level.  Then you could award that spell from the tome the party recovered to those that wish to study it.  If not enough to purchase fully then they can record the progress in skill ranks toward it.  Since the character didnt actually use their DP for this they are very pleased for the "free" advance.

Very nice perk and makes the player feel very special when they are awarded something.  Usually these were given out for outstanding feats, Roleplaying, Scene clinchers, etc.  The award is usually specific to that feat or goal. 

A super acrobatics roll to grab the remote and prevent armagedon is definately worth either a special +1 to all acrobatic like maneuvers in the future or additional PRE for fame.   Also the character tends to remember the even better when they see that roll.  While completing the part of the quest to obtain the spell of unmaking to make the Necromancer Vulnerable might give the Mage/Priest a "free" spell of Unmaking. 

[Ancient of Days]

seems to me learning of anything should be based on stat scores and a system to cover that sort of "levelling process". in the real world it takes years to master the concepts of quantum physics if you are a average level student. a student with a penchant for abstract thought would have an easier time grasping the basics of such a field, even with its mathematics heavy side.

as an example ... i know i have to get to the other side of the street, but how do i do it?
a. walk
b. get in my car and drive
c. call my friend to come get me and take me
d. im already on the other side of the street because particles can exist in two places at the same time under specific conditions....

to grasp the abstract points of spell casting and spell physics is not something just joe everyman can jump on ....

[Marc R]

Depends on how the mechanism works. . .like if your aura always keeps track of all your molecules, so desiring to be over there makes quantum entangles then moves you. . .in a universe where that was possible, you might need to reign in your desires to keep from teleporting. . . once you have a world where magic like that works, the logic is backfilled, not compared to the real world.

[jurasketu]

I have long used the principle (outlined in several posts many moons ago) that players can buy skills any time with unspent DPs (and even buy fate points with those DPs on the fly). It's crazy - but it works great.