Topic: HARP Magic Rules

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Inspired by some of the comments here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=9107.0

1) Magic
The magic system is fantastic, and there's a small shrine in my closet to HARP because of it.  But the Rolemaster model for spell possession infuriates me.  I much prefer the spell ideology in Dungeons & Dragons, in that Mages (people who study magic) have access to all the spells, and people who dabble in magic simply get LESS of those spells.  A "Warrior Mage" to me is a Fighter/Mage.  And there are three spells that are mechanically identical: Stellskin, Stoneskin, and Barkskin. Shame!

But luckily, HARP is a beautifully flexible system.  I'm currently working on cutting the number of spells and organizing them into schools of magic.  My goal is to essentially fall back to the D&D model for magic-users.  A Mage will have access to all of them, a Specialist gets a bonus to casting ones of his specialization (and perhaps also a Power Point discount of one point), but be unable to cast those opposite his School.  Hybrids will have access to a small number of spells, either based on school or not (haven't decided).

I'm doing something similar, though I'm not scaling back the number of spells. I'm taking the College of Magic idea of Arcane Circles and running with it-- using different circles for different settings. For "magic is magic" settings, I'm losing all of the other spellcasting classes (except Rogue) in favor of Mage. Every Mage picks an Arcane Circle at 1st level, and this gives them an additional Favored Category in addition to expanded spell access. More importantly, every Arcane Circle is its own skill, allowing casters to cast spells they know (for 10 DP) from that Circle at their ranking in the Circle. The Arcane Circle Talent works as normal, allowing the character to learn that Circle's spellcasting skill and spells from that circle. Figure Arcane Dabbler simply adds the selected spell to Universal Magic (which includes the College of Magics Cantrips skill), and Arcane Power allows a non-Mage to learn a non-Universal circle.

I'd also be expanding the number of circles, mostly by splitting the darkness/curse stuff from Necromancy and combining it with Shadowblade and the animal/plant stuff from Vivamancer and combining it with Ranger. Warrior Mage picks up a lot of extra spells, especially from the Cleric and Paladin list, but also picks up the Bolt and Ball spells.

For D&D conversion settings where I want to preserve the "D&D feel", Mystical Arts, Arcane Magic and Divine Magic are all separate Categories. Mystical Arts keeps Universal/Cantrips, while Arcane Magic gets the eight D&D Wizard schools and Divine Magic gets Theurgy (general priest magic like Bless and Turn Undead) and then Domains which work like 3e Domains or 2e Divine Spheres. If I include psionics, it would work using the magic system, with spell lists based on the psionic disciplines from D&D and its own Category.

You could do a lot of other things with a system like this. For instance, you could model a Legend of the Five Rings Shugenja by having Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Void spellcasting skills and lists-- Shugenja would have one Favored, one Forbidden, and learning Void would require a Talent.

[pastaav]

Interesting idea...could this idea be extended to handle things magic like Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series?

[GMLovlie]

Its certainly a possibility.

I have no long or detailed suggestion, but this is an idea I did toy with a few years back, but I lost interest once the series took a silly-turn.

Anyhew, my general idea was one of making a skill that enabled the character to tap into the source. Now the question becomes, how detailed and powerful does one want this skill to become. My first idea was of making the result of this roll deciding how many DPs was possible to channel during that first initial tap into the manapool, of course with an ultimate cap at you DP maximum, but perhaps a cap of 5pp per turn or so, perhaps even more, with special talents.

So whilst this one roll decides what you can cast in terms of power, it could possibly also be the actual casting roll, of course there could be issues with this I know.

Spell wise, something akin to what Korimyr wouldn’t perhaps be too crazy. Gaining access to a certain number and types of spells, which can be cast with that one channel skill, or as a separate skill, or skills. Making the channel roll just how many PPs you "collect" from the source this round. These should be possible, perhaps, to be used right away. depends on flavour really.

Just some incoherent thoughts for you on how to make WoT type spell casting.

[Maelstrom]

I'm not sure if what I'm doing with spell casting is what you had in mind Jegergryte but...

To add more distinction between ambient, fixed, personal and channeled (divine) casting styles, I made each with distinct benefits and drawbacks.  I didn't like how CoM nerfed ambient and fixed compared to personal and channeled.  I introduce new talents and changed PP Development to Tap Mana.  The following rules do not modify rules for spellcasting.  In essence it's a step before spellcasting.

The new talents define how each casting style works.  Each talent can be developed from 1 to 10 with the "level" determining the capacity the spell caster can use magic.  It defines the safe limit of spell casting or mana generation, so that a person with level 5 can generate/use 5 PPs in a round safely (exceeding that through skill usage requires a magic RR or face power burn.)  Level one talent costs 5 DPs and each successive level costs an additional 5 DPs so that to get level 5 talent a total of 75 DPs needs to be spent (5 for 1st, 10 for second, 15 for third, etc.)

Use Personal Mana - The spell caster maintains a personal pool of mana to work magic.  They cast spells in one round regardless of the number of PPs involved but are hampered in regenerating PPs.  To replace used PPs a personal mana user needs to meditate for one hour to regain a number of PPs equal to his talent level.  Given the strain of meditation a spell caster can meditate for a maximum of 4 hours in a 24 hour period.  Sure casting a massive spell in 1 round is great.  Now try regaining those PPs!  At level 5 talent you max out PP regeneration at 20 PPs.  A successful meditation roll may result in regenerating additional PPs at a penalty of -10 for each PP over their talent level.  If the roll is successful they need to make a magic RR to resist power burn.

Use Ambient Mana - The spell caster draws mana from the environment for use.  He draws a number of PPs equal to his talent level unless he rolls a successful Tap Mana skill on the bonus manuever column.  For each full 10 pts above 100 the ambient mana user may increase his pull of PP by +1 and -1 for each full 10 pts under 100.  A spell caster with level 5 can pull 5 PPs without risk.  Pulling more than that will require a magic RR to resist power burn.  (In my world the mana fluctuates based on the phases of the three moons.  This mana "tide" may further limit the ambient user if the tide is weaker than his talent level.)

Use Fixed Mana - The spell caster draws mana from mana rich items (like crystals, dragon scales, sapient manawood seeds or a familiar.)  The fixed mana users use the same rules as Ambient mana users except for they carry their source of mana with them.  Once they exhaust a source of mana they must find another source.  It's typical to see many mana rich items in a fixed mana user inventory.

Use Granted/Channeled Mana - This spell caster contracts with an extra-planar being (typically called a god but could be a demon or other entity) called a patron or benefactor.  These beings have obscenely huge amounts of mana that they can spare a few hundred PPs and not even notice.  In exchange for serving the patron, the channeler can access the PPs of their patron at a rate equal to their talent level.  Trying to rush matters the channeler can roll on the percentage column to boost the PPs they get from their patron, multiplying their talent level by the result.  Like the ambient spell caster they can end up reducing the number of PPs they get per round for results less than 100.

Power burn
Failing a magic RR results in power burn - a tiny magic critical.  The RR is modified by -10 for each PP over the spell casters talent level.  Failed RR's can increase the critical by one category for each full 10 points under 100 (a failed RR by -35 would result in a large magic critical.)  The critical is further modified by +10 for each PP over the talent level.

Example: Humpty Dumpty (an ambient spell user) is in a pickle and needs to cast a massive fireball to save his friends.  He has a talent level of 6 in Use Ambient Mana but needs 10 PPs.  He rolls his Tap Mana skill and succeeds in accumulating all 10 PPs and casts the spell.  The problem is that he failed his magic RR by 27 (a medium magic critical modified by +40!)  He rolls a devastating 82 and hopes his friends can help put him back together again.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Interesting idea...could this idea be extended to handle things magic like Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series?

The others seem to think so. I'm not conversant with Jordan's works, so I couldn't tell you whether the magic system would be adaptable or not. In general, if there are different "types" of magic that generate different types of magic effects, then probably.

[GMLovlie]

WoT has basically a dichotomous idea of magic, its either male or female, like yin and yang (as far as I read anyways). There might to be something more, but I can’t recall. The male half is, until late in the series, tainted, which is basically saying you go crazy if you use it.

The magic wielders, called Aes Sedai or somesuch, tap into the true source or something, and channel this magic into themselves and then cast (crazy) magic, which I think is at least partly is based on elements of some kind, but not in a strict manner. Additionally these Aes Sedai age more slowly than normal humans, a tad bit like Jedi really but the Aes Sedai powers are much more showy than the ninja-jedi, with fire and ice in beams and balls and crazy poodoo for aggressive ones.

Maelstrom’s idea could be adapted to this sort of casting I believe. Good ideas here, not counting me own.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Just thought I'd revisit this.

Right now, I'm running two HARP games.

In my Mushroom Kingdom game, I'm assuming that all magic is radiated onto the world by the Star Spirits. Every Sphere of magic is its own spellcasting skill. There is the Universal Sphere, which any character can learn-- which includes Universal Magic, Cantrips, and a handful of spells that are more common in the Mario Universe-- and then there are all the different Arcane Spheres, which every Mage and anyone with the Arcane Power talent can learn and learn spells from. These Spheres are Animist, Elementalist, Glamourist, Necromancer, Vivamancer, Battlemage, and Warlock. Spellcasting is verbal and requires the use of a magic scepter (or a -50 penalty) and more powerful scepters act both as PP adders and as bonus items for one or more Spheres.

The most powerful scepters, of course, are the Seven Scepters of Royalty (each one attuned to a different Sphere), the Scepter of the High King (concealed in High Princess Pichi's parasol) and the Star Rod which is an artifact that grants bonuses to all seven. Thinking of giving Bowser his own unique artifact scepter as well.

In my Spelljammer game, I'm using my default house rule. Spellcasting is Verbal and Gestural, but Song and Somatic can be learned as Talents. (Harpers get Song for free.) Universal and Cantrips are one skill, and each Professional Sphere or Circle is its own skill which characters must have the appropriate Arcane Power or Arcane Circle talent to learn the skill and the associated spells. Arcane Dabbler allows any one spell to be learned as if it belonged to any one Sphere, including Universal/Cantrips.

In both games, spells cost 2x their Base PP to learn. (I'm going to warn the players in the latter game before they reach 2nd level.)

There's something else I've been considering, but I'm not going to press ahead with it because it's probably broken. Using College of Magics, there would be three spellcasting skills: Low Magic (Universal Sphere and Cantrips), Middle Magic (all Professional Spheres/Circles, no Arcane Circle Talent), and High Magic. Styles are to be determined. Characters can learn any Low Magic spell plus 1 free Cantrip per rank, any Middle Magic spell they have the appropriate Talents for, and High Magic if they have the appropriate Talent. All spells cost 2x Base PP to learn. Not only is this a little too powerful in my opinion, I think I like the flavor of thematically linked spellcasting skills better.

Has anyone else come up with variants like these for the HARP magic system?

[Winterknight]

I'm hashing out the details now for a new campaign that would revisit the class compositions, and magic as part of that.  Essentially, skills, spells, and talents would be grouped in 3 cost classifications: favored, standard, and restricted.  Buying class "packages" changes the cost classification for your character.  Buying the Magical Training package, for example, shifts all Standard cost magical talents and spell spheres (like Universal and Cantrips) to the favored category for your character, and grants you one Lesser Sphere (a sphere of 15 spells, what would be typical of a semi-spell using class like Warrior Mage or Harper) at favored as well.  The Advanced Magical Training package gives further upgrades along the same lines. 

Spell Spheres are further broken down to Triads - i.e., there are 5 triads in a Lesser Sphere.  This just groups 3 related spells together, so that you gain access to 3 spells developed with a single skill.  Most triads consist of about a low, mid, and high level (base PP cost) spell.

I'm doing something similar with casting styles - you start with verbal/gestural, which includes those restrictions, then can buy talents to improve casting styles.  You can add benefits by taking more restrictive styles (like blood magic, dance, song), or you can buy down the basic verbal/gestural restrictions.

For me, this balances some of the local campaign issues.  You have to "buy in" to the magic with a class specialty, and that grants you certain benefits.  It was just too easy IMO for fighters and rogues to get access to spells in standard HARP.  Conversely, I also felt that characters who focus in magic had to really spread their points around to get a variety of spells, and they'd be fairly limited with those.