Topic: Cleric's Holy Symbol: To be held in hand or worn?

[masque1223]

If you want non-priest types to have abilities like that, the symbol doesn't necessarily have to be "holy". Perhaps the symbol itself holds power or it draws power from those who believe in its power...

This sounds reasonable to me.  Make it a religious magic item.  Maybe adapt the magic item creation rules used by the thaumaturges for clerical use.  I would assume that in a setting where there was enough of a need for such, the local religions would develop the magical tech to arm those of the faith to defend themselves.

A long time ago I proposed an alternative clerical magic system that would cover non-clerics using faith in such a manner, but I haven't developed it further.  For the outline of it, see here:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=2997.msg42035#msg42035

[jolt]

I've been reluctant to allow weapons as holy symbols.  I think even the devotee's of a god of war would realise that walking down a crowded city street prominently displaying your weapon is likely to be viewed upon very poorly by secular authotities; not to mention the general populace who can't distinguish between a priest displaying his holy symbol and some nutcase with a weapon walking down the street.

Or even worse, some horny guy who follows the god of lust running down the street naked shouting, "It's my Holy Symbol!"

jolt

[Right Wing Wacko]

Or even worse, some horny guy who follows the god of lust running down the street naked shouting, "It's my Holy Symbol!"

Well.... said guy may have a point! (no pun intended)

[Karizma]

If a weapon were to be a holy symbol, I might consider that it would have to be VERY ornate, and look unique enough to be able to identify it AS a holy symbol.  A sword would have a jewel-encrusted cross-piece with a colorfully painted scabbard.

It would be a very nice sell on the black market, and a Priest might find himself confronted with many a greedy thief on his way to the Temple.  But a God of War might have stipulations; he doesn't have to be bloodthirsty.

[jolt]

I think that there would have to be something special about a weapon before it could be considered a holy symbol.  Even a bloodthirsty war god, IMO, isn't going to accept every battleaxe ever made as a useable holy symbol.  I would, as you said, put some kind of stipulation on it first.  For example, the axe must hew the head of a hundred orcs and then be consecrated in the high temple and then you could count it as a holy symbol.  Even then, you would probably only use the holy symbol as a weapon in certain cases (like against orcs) but your not going going to stain your holy symbol, or worse risk breaking it, in some combat against a loserish bandit.

jolt

[masque1223]

If a weapon were to be a holy symbol, I might consider that it would have to be VERY ornate, and look unique enough to be able to identify it AS a holy symbol.  A sword would have a jewel-encrusted cross-piece with a colorfully painted scabbard.

I think it depends on how fleshed out the religion is, and in what way.  I wouldn't lay down any hard and fast aesthetic rules on weapons as Holy Symbols.

My dwarf cleric, for instance, as a condition of being a cleric of his particular forge god, is required to take a specific training package every time I level him.  This does give him some ranks on combat, but it also keeps his smithing skills maxed out, along with various other lore and other non-combat skills.  I've also made him unable to claim treasure from adventuring, he's only allowed to keep money he makes from weaponsmithing, his particular chosen profession.

As for his holy symbol, his warhammer is it by virtue of the fact that he has cast the spell Holy Symbol on it.  It is not particularly ornate, and if it were, that would get in the way.  It is his hammer that he uses for combat and for smithing.  It is utilitarian, not ornate, and aside from its uses as a tool and weapon, it represents the hard work and dedication that his god requires of his clerics.  Having it be particularly decorative wouldn't fit in with the religion.

[Karizma]

My dwarf cleric, for instance, as a condition of being a cleric of his particular forge god, is required to take a specific training package every time I level him.  This does give him some ranks on combat, but it also keeps his smithing skills maxed out, along with various other lore and other non-combat skills.  I've also made him unable to claim treasure from adventuring, he's only allowed to keep money he makes from weaponsmithing, his particular chosen profession.

*Emphasis mine
I love this idea.  This is a great way to keep a Cleric-character in line without making the player feel belted down.  "You have to buy this every level, but the rest of the DPs are yours to spend however."  I might just use this myself!  I'll give you an idea point for that.

[jasonbrisbane]

Just want to through something at you all:

Pat (a forum user) has a character who is a paladin with a warhammer as a holy symbol.

The Holy Symbol spell is requried for the item to be used as his Holy Symbol.
The spell Holy Symbol specifies that the user (caster?) can only have one Holy Symbolin existence.
This can be interpreted in two ways:

- Once cast that item is a holy symbol for all time, or until its destruction, thus only one item in existence at one time.

- Once cast only one item can be a holy sumbol. So a thief-god cleric who wants to weild twin daggers can make a dagger a holy symbol, but only one one - not both! if he casts it on one, then the other, only the second item will have the bonus.

Its a little thing, but one that would porobably require a house rule to clarify in your games...

I personally prefer option 1 (forces cleric to stick to one item), but our group agreed to use Option 2.

[mocking bird]

From a pure rules POV it is relatively easy: Holy Symbol is a spell that creates a personalized Holy Symbol which gives bonuses for the caster alone (see the spell description). So the Holy Symbol is useless for others. Perhaps a Thaumaturge can create a Holy Symbol which is usable not only for a specific person? In that case the symbol created that way could be used equally by Clerics and non Clerics.

They, and others, already have the ability via the various staff spells that don't have to be attuned to a specific person.  The abilities are a little different but close enough.

I think a less customized way to do this would be through the creation of actual magic items rather than modifying the holy symbol spell.

[Pat]

And derailed Off-Topic...sort of.

I just watched my favorite Vampire movie (Fearless Vampire Killers), and in one scene, the two hapless heroes cross greatswords to keep a pack of Vampires at bay, while they escape.

What are folks' thoughts on non Clerics being able to get some effect from a Holt Symbol? It seems that RPGs never address this, and every Vampire movie has normal folks wearing a cross...We all know the scene where the Vampire goes for the girl's neck, then moves aside her clothes, to see a cross, and recoils...

So, what effect should a Holy Symbol have for a non-Cleric?



-Uriel

I'd look at it slightly differently (such as one of my favourite vampire movies - Fright Night). I believe for a holy symbol to have an effect, the symbol must be backed by faith, therefore the player must have demonstrated belief. Prayer at church, tithing to the religion, performing acts that are in line with the religious belief and, of course, following the tenents of those beliefs. (For instance, a peaceful God's followers would have peaceful intentions to others.)

Example of belief: Good guy holding up cross "Stand back spawn of Satan!" Vampire "You must have faith for that to work on me!!" And tears the cross out of his hand.

Or....GM's rule that the higher the level of the undead the less chance they would have of being fooled by a holy symbol without faith. Lvl 1 skeletons (stupid) may run from a cross while a high lvl vampire would "sense" the lack of holy coming from the symbol and treat it like a cross shaped piece of wood.

[netbat]

If you want non-priest types to have abilities like that, the symbol doesn't necessarily have to be "holy". Perhaps the symbol itself holds power or it draws power from those who believe in its power...

This sounds reasonable to me.  Make it a religious magic item.  Maybe adapt the magic item creation rules used by the thaumaturges for clerical use.  I would assume that in a setting where there was enough of a need for such, the local religions would develop the magical tech to arm those of the faith to defend themselves.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be magic. There are a lot of examples in mythology where mundane items have an effect on supernatural creatures cf. running water, cold iron, salt, thresholds. You could say that certain creatures have to make a RR to get past all characters "aura of faith" and any holy symbol adds +50 or so to the characters chances.

You could even assume that you have the clerics "Holy Symbol" that uses his power and spell to repel the creature, someone holding out that same symbol of the deity made out of a material harmful to the creature, and someone using that symbol as a focus for a protection spell for themself. The creatures learn to avoid the symbol and everyone else thinks it is the symbol doing the work. Lot of good roleplaying there when the lore says the critter is afraid of crosses but it is really the silver edging they don't want to let touch them and you pull out that wooden cross... 
No one ever hears about the guy who pulled the wooden cross out and died because it didn't work, only the ones with the silver cross and they were saved.

[Hawkwind]

What are folks' thoughts on non Clerics being able to get some effect from a Holt Symbol? It seems that RPGs never address this, and every Vampire movie has normal folks wearing a cross...We all know the scene where the Vampire goes for the girl's neck, then moves aside her clothes, to see a cross, and recoils...

So, what effect should a Holy Symbol have for a non-Cleric?

I think this would have to be decided on a case by case basis. If, in your campaign, vampires have a particular susceptibility to crosses, then anyone wielding a cross should have some means of defending themselves. But if vampires are repulsed by holy symbols in general, then non-clerics shouldn't be able to use them effectively.

It would come down to the reason why vampires are affected by a cross. The same would apply to werewolves and wolvesbane (and would wolvesbane affect other lycanthropes or just werewolves?)

Hawk