Author Topic: Disengagin from melee  (Read 6599 times)

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2009, 06:30:23 AM »
"Press and Melee" is not one of the listed/defined actions in RMC, so first you would have to define it for RMC.






Offline thrud

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2009, 07:39:42 AM »
Ah, my bad...

Offline DonMoody

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2009, 08:17:20 AM »
Char A declares an attack on Char B. 100% activity action on the attack.

By the core rules, actions are resolves in 2 steps, at the 50% mark, and then above, but actually actions are resovled in 5% or 10% increments (first) and then in initiative order.

Say CharB uses a short action of some sort (50% activity action to move away as fast as possible). This is resolved at the 50% activity point.

Char A, decides to cancel his swing and give chase. 50% of the round HAS elapsed, so that is gone. Char A loses 10% activity (for a total of 60% activity of the round being gone), leaving him 40% activity in which to act.

Canceling that 100% activity attack does NOT leave him with 90% activity to act, not when half the round has already gone past.


Bob, what you are suggesting isn't going to work well as it can lead to characters waiting to the last second  and then canceling their actions and doing something completely else. For example, a character decided to charge his foe. His foe realizes this, and does a "set against charge" and just before everything resolves, the character realizes that the foe will strike first due to having a longer weapon, and decides to cancel the charge.  The way you are saying it should work, that basically gives a reset on the entire round...

One aspect of the way a round is resolved is that activity percentages DO expire and to pass.

Now is it possible that our examples in Arms Law are not perfect? Oh yeah.... That is one of the reasons for the forums, so questions can be asked and we can clarify things better.

IMO, this all just opens up a can of worms:

"Char A declares an attack on Char B. 100% activity action on the attack."

So for the entire 10 seconds, character A is trying to attack character B.

So what if character B starts to run away?
Character A is trying to attack character B for the entire 10 seconds.
If character B is 'only available' for some portion of that 10 seconds, character A still has some chance to hit character B, albeit probably less of a chance than if character B had 'been available' for the entire round.

IMO, what this mainly does is show the limitations of rounds being 10 second increments where "actions are resolves in 2 steps, at the 50% mark, and then above".

Character A wants to attack character B.
Character B starts running away (whether or not character B first 'feinted' or whatever to try and improve the chances of character B running away).
Yes, character B (if not cut down when he first turns and tries to flee) will likely get a step on character A, who can then try and chase after character B (or let him run away).
But just like character B gets a step on character A, character A has an opportunity to land a blow on character B as character B starts to run away.
Now, after character A tried to land that blow as character B ran away, unless character A is faster than character B, character A will not be able to catch up to character B (and thus will get no additional chances to to attack character B).

All of the above seems to be what I would call common sense.
Also, anyone can test this by grabbing a friend, a couple of shinai and trying it out - spare with both having the idea that after a solid blow lands, they will try and run away.
Sometimes you will get that step (and thus 'get away') without taking another hit, but sometimes you will get hit again as you try to flee.

DonMoody

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2009, 08:25:39 AM »
Nobody ever claimed it was perfect (IMO, there is no such thing).   ;D


Offline DonMoody

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2009, 08:33:27 AM »
Nobody ever claimed it was perfect (IMO, there is no such thing).

A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault.

Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.

DonMoody

Offline pastaav

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2009, 09:00:00 AM »
Bob, what you are suggesting isn't going to work well as it can lead to characters waiting to the last second  and then canceling their actions and doing something completely else. For example, a character decided to charge his foe. His foe realizes this, and does a "set against charge" and just before everything resolves, the character realizes that the foe will strike first due to having a longer weapon, and decides to cancel the charge.  The way you are saying it should work, that basically gives a reset on the entire round...

Errh...how could this ever be a problem?
Character A charges and then cancel his action...for what gain? He get 90% action back that he can use for what, a spell? He better pray that he has better initative than the character B so that he at least has one chance to escape getting killed. If he does not put out character B with his single spell or teleport away he will suffer the consequences of no parry when character B attack him. Possibly he could cancel his action and declare discharge from melee, but how could this be game breaking?

Possibly it might be a problem if you allow a character to cancel an attack to be able to change how much he parries with for just -10 in penalty (make full attack if enemy becomes stunned), but that possibility can easily be ruled as forbidden without messing up the rules for canceling actions. Also the enemies can use similar clever tricks anyway so it is not like the players will have any real advantage from canceling actions.
/Pa Staav

Offline bbrophy75

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2009, 10:00:06 AM »
Char A declares an attack on Char B. 100% activity action on the attack.

By the core rules, actions are resolves in 2 steps, at the 50% mark, and then above, but actually actions are resovled in 5% or 10% increments (first) and then in initiative order.

Say CharB uses a short action of some sort (50% activity action to move away as fast as possible). This is resolved at the 50% activity point.

Char A, decides to cancel his swing and give chase. 50% of the round HAS elapsed, so that is gone. Char A loses 10% activity (for a total of 60% activity of the round being gone), leaving him 40% activity in which to act.

Canceling that 100% activity attack does NOT leave him with 90% activity to act, not when half the round has already gone past.


I am not arguing whether the rules are good bad or indifferent. What I am saying is that what Rasyr quoted above is (imho) not supported by the rules in arms law.

Specifically, here is what Arms law has to say about canceling an action:

Canceling an Action: There may be times when a player, after declaring their action, may decide that they need to cancel their declared action and declare a different action. There are several guidelines to be followed when canceling actions.
? Actions may only be canceled only during the player?s turn.
? Only actions that have not been resolved may be canceled.
? The character loses 10% of their remaining activity for canceling an action.
? The character may declare a new action, so long as they have enough percentage of activity to complete the new action.

To me this is saying the character who cancels their action lose 10% of their remaining activity. The word 'their' implies the activity the specific character has, not the amount of 'activity' that has passed for the round.

This interpretation is reinforced by the example give on pp. 34-36. It gives an example of canceling. Here is the portions I found relevant to this discussion:

Example: Our three heroes, Gauth the Fighter, Athlon the Rogue, and Aurin the Magician, exit a small canyon into a mountain pass, only to find themselves confronted by two Lesser Orcs, led by a Greater Orc, blocking their path. Two Goblins with short bows crouch on a ledge 30? above and to the left of the Orc position. The Greater Orc bellows and points, and Combat time starts.

Declare Initial Actions Step:
Aurin: I?ll cast Sleep VII on those
goblins, then wait.
Athlon: I?ll fire on lesser Orc 1, then reload.
Gauth: I advance on the orcs 50%
activity and attack 50%. (90/20 OB/DB)
Greater Orc: Throws a spear at the one
with the bow (Athlon)
...
Aurin has cast his spell, and depleted 75% of his activity, leaving him with 25%. The Greater Orc cancels his attack on Athlon, and re-directs it on Aurin. (The mod causes him to loose initiative to Athlon.) The Greater Orc has expended 10% activity in canceling his previous action, and has 90% activity left.
...
The Greater Orc Declares he will throw his spear (50% activity) at the nasty spell caster (Aurin), despite the extreme range.

In this example, it strongly suggests that canceling an action simply means a loss of 10% activity. Despite the round being '75% over', the greater orc in the example lost only 10% for redirecting his attack against the spell caster. He still had 90% action left. If instead the rules for canceling were "10% + activity spent so far in the round" then wouldn't the greater orc in the example have used 85% action (10% + 75% since that is the point at where he canceled his action during turn) to cancel and thus he would not have been able to throw his spear?

Again note that I am not debating what ther rules should be or any of that. I am questioning how accurate the rules are in regards to the current discussion on canceling actions.

Bob

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2009, 10:30:11 AM »
Quote
• The character loses 10% of their remaining activity for canceling an action.

I bolded the key word there.

As for the example -- the Orc canceled his action in exchange for performing the SAME action against a different target. So, the Orc didn't actually cancel his action, but changed the target of his action, and as GM(i.e. the writer), I tacked on the extra 10% activity and called it "canceling" when it actually wasn't (since he STILL made an attack, still performed the SAME action he had originally started, he just modified it slightly).

In short, it isn't the interpretation that is flawed, but my example that is messed up.  ;D

The intention was that the amount of activity that has passed WHEN the cancel is declared HAS passed, and is removed from the amount of activity available (along with an additional 10% activity). Hence the use of the word "remaining" in the description of canceling an action.




Offline DonMoody

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2009, 03:07:58 PM »
In short, it isn't the interpretation that is flawed, but my example that is messed up.

I've found this discussion has left me more confused than I was after I read the first post; more specifically, the 'previously unknown to me' distinction between 'cancel' and 'change target' and the equally 'previously unknown to me' indication that '10% of their remaining activity' was intended to be read as 'the portion of the round that has passed plus an additional 10% is lost'.

Does there exist errata or an FAQ for this that I can download which covers these aspects of Arm's Law?

DonMoody

Offline pastaav

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 11:08:51 AM »
Quote
? The character loses 10% of their remaining activity for canceling an action.

I bolded the key word there.

As for the example -- the Orc canceled his action in exchange for performing the SAME action against a different target. So, the Orc didn't actually cancel his action, but changed the target of his action, and as GM(i.e. the writer), I tacked on the extra 10% activity and called it "canceling" when it actually wasn't (since he STILL made an attack, still performed the SAME action he had originally started, he just modified it slightly).

Errmmm...why would he suffer the cancel penalty if he did not cancel his action? You are either splitting hairs or avoiding the question.

I am totally with bbrophy75, his description is what you get if you use the rules as written.

The intention was that the amount of activity that has passed WHEN the cancel is declared HAS passed, and is removed from the amount of activity available (along with an additional 10% activity). Hence the use of the word "remaining" in the description of canceling an action.

I can see no plausible game scenario when using the written rules is ever a problem (except maybe changing the parry against the same enemy if the GM allow this to be different action). If you want to stick to your more complex ruling you need to present a gaming scenario that motivates this more complex rule.
/Pa Staav

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2009, 03:02:16 PM »
okay, let's try this from the top...   :D

First off, my apologies. I didn't actually go back and read the section and the example before answering. I should have, but the last few weeks have been rough (a sister having brain surgery to have a huge tumor removed and 3 deaths in the family, the third funeral was this past Friday), so I tried to answer going solely from memory and solely from what was posted here in this thread. I should have known better.

Anyways, I feel like my head head is a bit above water this afternoon, and that I can actually think a little more clearly this afternoon. So, let me try to answer this issue about Canceling an Action with a bit more clarity, now that I can actually function and now that I have reviewed what the book actually says.

As for my answer from yesterday - the point that pastaav quoted is essentially me trying to figure out and justify why I wrote something the way that I did (without going back to actually read what I had originally wrote). Which only made things worse apparently.... hehe... Again, my apologies....

Onwards....



First off, the way that I see it is that there are actually 2 different methods of handling Canceling actions possible. The method to use would be based on how you handle resolving actions. The book uses one method in the example, and my previous answers used the other method.

  1. Resolution Point - Under the core rules, there are 2 Resolution Points. One for all actions taking less than 50% (Short Actions) and one for all actions taking more than 50% activity (Long Actions). There is also an option that allows breaking the round into 4 Resolution Points (25% increments).

    Under this method of resolving actions, when you Cancel an Action, you do NOT lose any activity, except for the 10% activity that is sacrificed to actually cancel the action. This is the method that was used in the example. The actual percentage of activity used isn't relevant unless other actions have been performed and completed (i.e. you did a 40% activity move and then a 60% activity attack, and then cancel the attack to do something else - leaving only 50% activity available).

    However, there is a glitch in this method. If a character declares a Long Action, and then cancels it and declares a short action (that should have resolved in the first Resolution Point, this can cause some quirks or issue that might not have been apparent previously.

    For example, there is the issue of when you declare an attack, you also have to declare an OB/DB split. If you cancel that attack to do something completely different (thus no OB to DB), but you do so AFTER you have been attacked (gotten the benefit of the DB), then this leaves the problem of how to resolve that issue.

    In this case, I would likely rule that canceling your action DOES take place at the activity % used in the foe's attack (since you DID get the benefit of the DB), and that after using another 10% activity, you can declare another action.

    Other than those possible problem spots, it is a bit less realistic, but also less harsh on the players for the most part.

  2. Activity Point - In this resolution method, the activity percentages is used as the break points for resolving actions, with actions requiring less activity resolving first and those with the same amount of activity resolving in initiative order.

    Under this method, each break point is also a chance for a character to cancel their existing action and then declare another. Under this method, the activity percentage break point that has passed would be the amount of activity used in the round to that point. and the remaining activity percentage would be based on that.

    For example, you declare that you are attacking Orc A. The GM calls for actions resolving at 10% activity increments. At the 20% increment, you declare that you are canceling your attack on the Orc, to move to Orc B (30% activity). Orc B can then also cancel and move after you accordingly.

    Much smoother, but takes more time to resolve I think.


Offline DonMoody

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2009, 04:44:11 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.

The campaign I am playing in initially used RM but then shifted to a home-brew 'hybrid' system.
The players were not happy with 'the really bigly publicized RPG?' (either the current or most previous version) but also had problems with 'straight' RM.
So the group compromised and generated a hybrid system that was simple to use/understand but incorporated some of the depth of RM (e.g. the spell system and critical hits).

One of the problems the group had with 'straight' RM was along these lines:

In this case, I would likely rule that ...

The group wanted printed hard and fast rules that could simply be followed without requiring (any, or at least very, very little) interpretation.
Unfortunately, the groups overall consensus was that RM did not quite meet that criteria.

The group overwhelmingly wanted to avoid/eliminate as many 'requires interpretation' rules as possible.
In other words, my current group wants to have rules that all can read then understand with no interpretation required (so when they sit down to game, they know 'what is what' and don't get surprised with 'I interpret it this way but you interpret it that way' type events).

We have mostly succeeded (and every time another 'requires interpretation' situation pops up we 'whack' it - just like the moles in the arcade game - with a clarification incorporated into the home-brew stuff).
So far, the home brew rules are about two dozen pages (well spaced, good font size, lots of tables, very easy to read) but require frequent references to rules in RM and some non-RM books (the rules someone does not have memorized anyway).

Everyone has been having a really good time so we are considering the attempt/effort a solid success.

Thanks again for the clarification.

DonMoody

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2009, 05:43:53 PM »
Quote
The group wanted printed hard and fast rules that could simply be followed without requiring (any, or at least very, very little) interpretation.

The problem is that no RPG can supply that. You would end up  with either a board game or a computer game. The closest that you could come would be d20 (D&D 3.5), which actually did try to give specific rules for every single situation.

IMO, it is better to supply solid guidelines first and foremost, and let the GM handle each specific situation as it comes up because there is absolutely no way to predict the exact setting/rules/options/PCs/monster/skills mix of every single situation.


Offline bbrophy75

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2009, 05:59:32 PM »
First,  I would like to extend my condolences to you Rasyr on the loss of three family memebers, and hope/prayers to a succesful recovery regarding the brain cancer your sister is suffering from.


The problem is that no RPG can supply that. You would end up  with either a board game or a computer game. The closest that you could come would be d20 (D&D 3.5), which actually did try to give specific rules for every single situation.

IMO, it is better to supply solid guidelines first and foremost, and let the GM handle each specific situation as it comes up because there is absolutely no way to predict the exact setting/rules/options/PCs/monster/skills mix of every single situation.


I don't necessarily see "hard and fast" verus "solid guidelines, but otherwise upto the GM" as being mutually exclusive. In fact, I find that unless I have something "hard and fast" to work off of, it is hard to adjucate a situation.

With all that said, I do appreciate the clarification regarding the 'canceling action' topic that has been discussed. I feel better knowing that the Arms Law Core rules are in fact consistent with my interpretations.

Bob

Offline DonMoody

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2009, 08:00:33 PM »
Quote
The group wanted printed hard and fast rules that could simply be followed without requiring (any, or at least very, very little) interpretation.

The problem is that no RPG can supply that.

Tell me about it!
The group I am in is problematic in a few ways and that (wanting it all nailed down in concise - i.e. brief and clear - rules) is one of them.
[And, FWIW, the group did try - after a *long* hiatus from 'the bigly system' - 3.5 and after a few month 'honeymoon' period, wasn't happy with that; and did try 4 last year with an even briefer 'honeymoon'. So far the home-brew hybrid is holding up rather well but time will tell ...]

DonMoody

Offline pastaav

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2009, 01:28:40 AM »
However, there is a glitch in this method. If a character declares a Long Action, and then cancels it and declares a short action (that should have resolved in the first Resolution Point, this can cause some quirks or issue that might not have been apparent previously.

For example, there is the issue of when you declare an attack, you also have to declare an OB/DB split. If you cancel that attack to do something completely different (thus no OB to DB), but you do so AFTER you have been attacked (gotten the benefit of the DB), then this leaves the problem of how to resolve that issue.

Isn't the real problem that cancel is supposed to be of actions you have not yet done, but in your "problematic" example you allow cancel of an action that is already executed since he was attacked?

RMFRP include the rule that you can only cancel an attack before any attack rolls are done. If the enemy has attacked you and not fumbled then you are in melee since you parried with you allocated parry. 
/Pa Staav

Offline thrud

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2009, 02:15:01 AM »
My condolences to you Rasyr.
I think the examples give above works fairly well but if we're going to be picky about things I think pastaav is onto something here.
In RM each round is 10 seconds and the attack roll represents the acumulated damage you manage to inflict on your opponent during the 10 seconds. Initiative is mainly about who gets the good swing in first.
If we were to follow this line of thought things will look slightly diferent when disengaging from melee.
A vs B situation.
#A declares an attack on #B.
#B declares he wants to disengage.
During the time #B starts to look for his opening where he can get away #A starts his attack on #B.
Now, will #B just go for it and run or will he try to parry at the sam time he's trying to get away?
1) #B just tries to run. -> 30% disengage and 70% run.
#A now has to decide to make his attack or cancel the remaining attack. -> Attack 100% or attack 30% cancel 10% and run 60%?
2) #B disengages and tries to parry somewhat at the same time. -> 30% disengage 70% parry and he starts nest round 10' away.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2009, 06:49:28 AM »
Isn't the real problem that cancel is supposed to be of actions you have not yet done, but in your "problematic" example you allow cancel of an action that is already executed since he was attacked?

The RMC rules say that you cannot cancel actions that you have completed, and his declared action is an attack, which the character in the example has not made yet.

Your question is the sort of problematic thing (and argument) that can or might arise from little quirks in the system as I was trying to point out. Thank you for being a good example..  ;D

RMFRP include the rule that you can only cancel an attack before any attack rolls are done. If the enemy has attacked you and not fumbled then you are in melee since you parried with you allocated parry. 

But this is RMC, not RMFRP.  :D

And actually, that first sentence (of your quote) isn't what it says. On page 54 of RMFRP, there is a note under the Canceling Actions that basically (and specifically) says that if part of a character's OB has been used to parry a foe then that he may not cancel the related attack action.

This (the note from RMFRP) may be a good bit of errata to add to RMC in regards to canceling actions.

In RM each round is 10 seconds and the attack roll represents the acumulated damage you manage to inflict on your opponent during the 10 seconds. Initiative is mainly about who gets the good swing in first.
If we were to follow this line of thought things will look slightly diferent when disengaging from melee.
A vs B situation.
#A declares an attack on #B.
#B declares he wants to disengage.

Okay.

During the time #B starts to look for his opening where he can get away #A starts his attack on #B.
Now, will #B just go for it and run or will he try to parry at the sam time he's trying to get away?

This then is the question..   ;D

1) #B just tries to run. -> 30% disengage and 70% run.
#A now has to decide to make his attack or cancel the remaining attack. -> Attack 100% or attack 30% cancel 10% and run 60%?

30% disengage - This is a short action, and would be resolved at the first resolution point. The player would then, after the disengage is resolves, declare his next action. If he were smart, he would declare a 10% move (which would ALSO resolve as a short action), and allow him to move away from foe a short distance before declaring the longer move (which would resolve as a Long Action).

Otherwise, if he just declared a 70% move, that would resolve as a long action. And in that situation, the other character can easily (once that 70% move was declared), cancel his action, and either move and attack the guy who just disengaged OR charge/attack him (which even lessens the impact of additional moves since it is a combined move/attack and might be able to cover the distance that the other guy moved).

2) #B disengages and tries to parry somewhat at the same time. -> 30% disengage 70% parry and he starts nest round 10' away.

Impossible. In order to parry, the character would have to declare an attack. and page 29 of RMC Arms Law specifically states that if performing a Disengage from Melee action that you CANNOT attack in the same round as you are performing the disengage.

The disengage was written that way to prevent a character from making a 70% activity attack, followed by a 30% activity disengage as a means of preventing the foe from having the chance to attack back.