Topic: Question about armors

[dagorhir]

Do armors add up their benefits and penalties if they cover the same portion of the body?

Question comes because of the coif (Martial Law pg. 46) which covers the head, neck and shoulders. If the character also wears a chain shirt, which also covers the shoulders. This gives me the impression that they do. What happens if the character also wears a rigid leather cuirass over his chain shirt?

Coif    DB 12 MxUFMP 60 MnUFMP 12 MxMP 30 MnMP 6 CP 2PP
Shirt   DB 16 MxUFMP 48 MnUFMP 8   MxMP 24 MnMP 4 CP 4PP
Total        28              108            20           54          10    6

Coif       DB 12 MxUFMP 60 MnUFMP 12 MxMP 30 MnMP 6     CP 2PP
Shirt      DB 16 MxUFMP 48 MnUFMP 8   MxMP 24 MnMP 4    CP 4PP
cuirass   DB 9   MxUFMP 32 MnUFMP 4   MxMP 12 MnMP 1.5 CP 2PP
Total           37              140            24           66          1.5      8

Would that be correct?

[Thom @ ICE]

From HARP Fantasy Core Rules:

Also note that armor pieces do overlap; this is how they are designed. However—this does not result in a double DB in those areas. Use only the best armor in each location. For example, pauldrons technically cover the shoulders and the upper arms, but when worn alone count only as covering one hit location—the shoulders.


Rigid Leather over a chain shirt provides no more armor protection than the chain shirt on it's own according to the rules.

[VladD]

I am not really in to HARP, but I do know a thing or two about armor. I was reading the post, but why not, as a sort of optional rule, allow armor stacking. Using Kurbul and mail together actually is a very good idea, since it counters all types of attack better than each on its own.
Kurbul wards off cuts and crushes, while mail counters punctures and cuts.
Perhaps apply a small stacking penalty additionally with all the other penalties to balance the DB boost or have DB stacking limits per combination: so mail and rigid leather would stack 75%, mail and scale just 50% and mail and plate 25% (from the assumption that the better DB bonus is the base and the mail just adds little benefit).
Plate and Cuir bouille do not stack appreciably, as well as soft leather and mail. Leather scale and metal scale shouldn't stack, too, all on account that they essentially work the same way, except in different materials.

Locations for such extra armoring are usually well thought out by the armorers of old. Such as the coif: it was a real problem for knights to get hit on the shoulder because of the large area, availability and its weakness in that it allows upper body maneuverability.

Extra armoring was commonplace and if it can be simulated easily: I'd use it!

[Thom @ ICE]

I would recommend strongly against it.  The armor in HARP is intended to include the layers of padding, support materials and underpadding.  Full suits of armor provide the best protection because it is designed to work together. 

I am not personally familiar with kurbul but believe it is overlapping plate. I also assume you are referring to chain mail armor when you say mail.  HARP plate armor already includes chain underneath it, so indicating you are wearing a chain shirt under plate armor is effectively redundant for the HARP rules. 

For those who prefer to use multiple types of armor at the same time the Core rules give you the general rules that cover that. 

[dagorhir]

Thanks Thom. This is inline with my initial assumption.

I actually don't use full sets of armor in my game. DB is determined by the area covered. My initial though was what ever if the best protection for a specific area is what is used.

Although, in reality armor protection does stack. I found that in the game gets a little too complicated to manage.

I have fought (for real with blunt steel blades) which both chain mail and a combination of chain mail and rigid leather. The second one offers much better protection from blows since chain mail really sucks against bludgeoning weapons.

[VladD]

Plate armor didn't have mail underneath, unless it is a transitional armor. Only weak spots such as arm pits and back of the knees were protected by gussets: pieces of mail fastened on the arming coat.

Mail is the term used by people that study armors or use them as re-enactors and such. Chain mail was a victorian term, unfortunately used by Gygax, so it became popularized (in fact I sometimes say it).

To make armor types stack, perhaps a new table can be made for DBs and penalties for pieces that can be added?

[Thom @ ICE]

I don't have any info to confirm/dispute any of those statements. My personal knowledge of armor is somewhat limited and generally focused on literature and movies.

As for HARP, it is unlikely that HARP will add that much detail and complexity into armor.We're trying to go the other way - simpler.