Author Topic: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?  (Read 1987 times)

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Offline Mordenkainen

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Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« on: November 02, 2011, 04:37:06 AM »
Thinking of a more Conan-esque or sword-and-sorcery setting than usual, where armor is less important, and plate armor doesn't exist. What house rules would you use? Are any necessary?

Offline MariusH

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 05:34:59 AM »
Making armour simply unavailable will of course cause noone to wear armour. However, remember that some classes depend heavily on the ability to wear armour, and will become much weaker without this ability. Above all the fighter, of course, but other classes as well. It will favor non-armour wearers like mages. So perhaps you should consider something to even out this a bit? Maybe lower the cost of adrenal defence for fighters, for instance, and use this in combination with weapons to give them another means to defend themself?
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Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 09:53:37 AM »
The Combat Companion has a lot of rules for Weapon Styles which can make an unarmored warrior interesting.  Armor obviously has advantages (otherwise no one in the ancient world would have worn it), but under that rule set you can do things like have martial arts katas, get bonuses to OB based on Ranks in other skills (e.g. Riding, Acrobatics, etc.), and there are a number of options to improve one's DB (usually at the cost of OB or critical strikes).

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2011, 10:18:20 AM »
In the typical Conan-type setting, magic is also pretty rare. If you clamp down on magic (limiting spell users much more than normal), I think this can balance out the lack of armor. By constructing your setting properly, you won't necessarily need any house rules.

One of the easiest ways to limit the use of heavy armor (aside from not having it available, of course) is to strictly enforce ALL weight and maneuver penalties associated with it. Full plate is pretty cumbersome stuff, and Maneuver in Armor can't offset all the negatives. If your game is heavy on maneuver rolls, fighters falling on their faces due to heavy armor can be a pretty good negative enforcer.

I've actually found some of the martial arts stuff to be pretty unbalancing to games, so I don't use it near as much (and also tend to restrict the skills to specific classes and cultures).
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Offline providence13

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2011, 12:13:09 PM »
You could always limit the available resources in an area. Something Dune/Darksun related where there isn't much metal around to be turned into armor and weapons.

Iron/Ferrous metals could be toxic to the Sidhe/Seelie/Elven/Fay peoples and they could restrict it's knowledge and use.

Change the temperature. If it's really hot or cold, heavy metal armor will do more harm than good in those environs. I think GM Law has good info on this.

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Offline VladD

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 02:37:55 AM »
The first thing that came to mind is to make plate and chain skill trainers less available. If the fighter cannot acquire the skill, he will not use the armor.

Also you might allow a shield skill to be developed to make up for low armor. (AT 10 is pretty crappy) http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10021.0

Also allowing more armor to be used when using adrenal defense, such as AT 5-6 and 9, might make lower armor types more attractive.

Another way of going about it is increasing the QU penalty on heavy armor, making lighter armor seem more attractive. You could explain this by saying plate and maille are crudely made, if at all, so won't be as sophisticated as represented in the RM armor table.

Hyborean age seems to be about the period before the Roman empire. So iron wasn't as widespread as during the Roman age. Before Iron people had to make due with bronze armor and bronze is -5 armor material and it makes armors more akward due to it needing to be made heavier for the same protection as iron.

Lastly I would disallow access to the more covering armor types. The Celts and subsequently the Roman used only a maille shirt (AT 13) and only the important combatants would use greaves and bracers to up it to AT 14. Historically it is thought to be because Romans favored evasion over armor. This why they were reluctant to cover their arms and legs. Also there was an issue with temperature, as Providence13 mentioned. An occasional bronze breastplate would be reserved for the generals and the praetorian guards. This is all in a time period that succeeds the "hyborean age", suggesting it should be worse during that earlier period.

Let us know what you come up with?

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Offline Nders

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 04:07:20 AM »
As Ynglaur said try looking at CC and the combat styles there. Also try looking at this article from Guild companion on armor: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2011/nov/artoffighting07.html

If you have access to Arms companion from RM2nd there is a chapter there (and a table :)) on armors and exhaustion which could be usefull.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 11:49:31 PM »
Once you rule that plate is not available (except as penalty-carrying bronze breastplates), heavy armor become much less appealing. Players will generally want AT-20 or AT-1. Unless you make AT-12 available, which I would take in a second. The question in Rolemaster has generally been how to make armor attractive rather than the reverse. I wouldn't bother with house rules. Maybe double the price of what armor is available due to rarity.

However, the idea that avoiding armor is Conanesque is simply false. Conan certainly wore mail. The nigh-naked warrior, male or female, is largely the product of cover artists. In the Hyborean age, those areas with sufficient metallurgy were mailed, and it was certainly an age of iron.

Here is the very first description of Conan I grabbed when I started looking for text to make this point: "The stranger was clad like himself in regard to boots and breeks, though the latter were of silk instead of leather. But he wore a sleaveless hauberk of dark mesh-mail in place of a tunic, and a helmet perched on his black mane. That helmet held the other's gaze; it was without a crest, but adorned by short bull's horns. No civilized hand ever forged that head-piece. Nor was the face below it that of a civilized man: dark, scarred, with smoldering blue eyes, it was a face as untamed as the primordial forest which formed its background. The man held a broadsword in his right hand, and the edge was smeared with crimson." ("Beyond the Black River", REH)

Heck, a quick page through gets me Conan endorsing the value of armor, and adding a clear statement of the maneuver penalty's effect: "Conan tapped his mail-shirt and helmet. 'If more borderers would wear harness there'd be fewer skulls handing on the altar-huts. But most men make noise if they wear armor.[']"
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Offline providence13

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 12:04:40 PM »
Similar to what Vlad and others have said..

According to wiki:
"Hittites in Anatolia were first to develop the smelting of iron ores around 1500 BC. They maintained a near monopoly on the knowledge of iron production for several hundred years. After their empire collapsed around 1200 BC, the knowledge escaped in all directions."

Your campaign could be around a similar timescale when the knowledge hasn't yet spread to every corner of the globe.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 09:45:05 PM »
I find that if you just choose to be really hard, and enforce every iota of problems heavy armor presents, people give up wearing it.
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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 11:55:40 PM »
Quote
I find that if you just choose to be really hard, and enforce every iota of problems heavy armor presents, people give up wearing it.

True. Or design characters who won't suffer too much from it. Characters without a high QU bonus for example.

I find it amusing that someone is trying to discourage the use of heavy armor when so many on this site have done things like letting strength cancel the QU penalties for DB purposes to encourage its use.

Offline markc

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 12:09:25 AM »
Quote
I find that if you just choose to be really hard, and enforce every iota of problems heavy armor presents, people give up wearing it.

True. Or design characters who won't suffer too much from it. Characters without a high QU bonus for example.

I find it amusing that someone is trying to discourage the use of heavy armor when so many on this site have done things like letting strength cancel the QU penalties for DB purposes to encourage its use.


 I think the OP was trying to find a solution to a Game Wold model problem, ie trying to recreate the world of Conan.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 06:48:30 AM »
One of the easiest ways to limit the use of heavy armor (aside from not having it available, of course) is to strictly enforce ALL weight and maneuver penalties associated with it. Full plate is pretty cumbersome stuff, and Maneuver in Armor can't offset all the negatives. If your game is heavy on maneuver rolls, fighters falling on their faces due to heavy armor can be a pretty good negative enforcer.
I agree with this, just remember to enforce the rules already there. If that is still not enough for you, then just up the penalties a bit until it gets to where you think it should be.

I have come to believe that the typical adventurer is fairly stupid for wearing heavy armor on a daily basis; there are just too many situations where it hinders more than helps. Knights on the other hand....
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 12:14:25 PM »
I generally find that if the GM a hard about the penalties as is, it's often enough, but if you need more?

Present lots and lots of advantage from moving maneuvers. . .you're out near the end of a dock, 40 soldiers are coming up to kill you, in plate mail you can fight them, in no armor you dive in the water and swim off.

Lots of climbing into places, or out of places, crossing swamps, rivers and lakes, adventures on the decks of boats, etc.

if swamps, snow, swimming and climbing come up often, you increase the instances where armor is an issue.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Discouraging the use of heavy armor...?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 05:32:08 PM »
When designing my own campaign I wanted armor to be more... realistic I guess you'd say.  I didn't want things like someone in full plate mail tip toeing across the tops of rocks in a otherwise raging river, etc, etc.  I wanted good armor to really mean something.

So I discourage the use of heavy armor firstly by simply making it hard to get your hands on.  Cost and availability are expensive and limited.  Pretty easy.

Also, if in heavy armor, you draw a lot attention to yourself.  Why?  Because most people that have it are: Royalty, a Knight, or in the army (each of which can make you target, or at the least very memorable).  In most situations the group didn't want to be drawing attention to themselves or make themselves very memorable to onlookers.  So, even if the party "tank" got his/her hands on a set of good full plate they wouldn't want to run around town wearing it constantly.
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