Topic: Goblin Dogs

[Erik Sharma]

Hi I was creating Goblin Dogs for HARP. The stats can be found in http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/riseOfTheRunelords/v5748btpy7zkq if you have the adventure.
If not you can find info about them here: http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Goblin_dog and http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/goblinDog.html

Well when it was time to calculate the BMR of the Goblin Dog I didn't know if I was to use the dogs height or length as a base for it's BMR considering it's a quadruped. So I decided to check up the existing dogs in HARP and M:aFG to see what values they had.

• Riding Dog in HARP has a BMR of 22'
• Wolf in HARP has a BMR of 16'
• Domestic Dog in M:aFG has a BMR of 4'
• War Dog in M:aFG has a BMR of 6'

As you can imagine this didn't help me much and made me realize that some of the numbers must be off. The BMRs from M:aFG sound about right if you have used the dogs height as a base for their BMR. The number from HARP doesn't sound right at all though.
It might be me but something smells a bit fishy with these numbers. 
22' sound a bit too high for a dog (it's faster than most horses in the HARP book)  and 4-6' sound way to low (except for really small breeds). The only BMR that in my ear sound realistic are the Wolfs BMR. Either way I have been twisting and turning the numbers and can't seem to get to a solution on what numbers to use. So far the numbers I like the best are when I double a dogs height and use that to calculate the BMR.

As real life example I used my dog (now diseased) who was about 2'4" to his shoulders compared to me who is about 5'8" and he was around my speed when running. Assuming I would have a Qu at average of 50 I would end up with a BMR of 9'. My dog would end up with a BMR of 8' (4'8"x2 gives BMR 7' and +1' for a Qu of 75) and that sounds more acceptable. But as you can see those numbers are nowhere near the numbers mentioned in the books.

Any thoughts behind those numbers from the books?

[TwilightKing]

This is how would handle it: Do a straight on conversion from the Goblin Dog.

They have a speed of 50ft a round. A round in Pathfinder (D&D) is 6 seconds, if I remember right.
Divide 50 by 6, gives you 8.33, round down to 8. HARP round is 2 seconds, this will give you a BMR of 16', same as a wolf.

If you look up Wolf in the d20 SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm

You see wolves have a speed of 50. Same as your goblin dog.

Hope this helps some.

[Erik Sharma]

This is how would handle it: Do a straight on conversion from the Goblin Dog.

They have a speed of 50ft a round. A round in Pathfinder (D&D) is 6 seconds, if I remember right.
Divide 50 by 6, gives you 8.33, round down to 8. HARP round is 2 seconds, this will give you a BMR of 16', same as a wolf.

If you look up Wolf in the d20 SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm

You see wolves have a speed of 50. Same as your goblin dog.

Hope this helps some.

All good and well. But being the rulesjunkie I am. I just can't let it pass without trying to get some answers. I still wanna know why HARP dogs and wolves have so varying and strange BMR speeds. I did just use the dog size from the SRD of 5' and it gave me a BMR of 9' (including the Qu bonus). Sounds good enough to me so went with that.

They are also capable of running at speeds of 56–64 km (34–38 miles) per hour, and can continue running for more than 20 minutes, though not necessarily at that speed

I might be wrong! But it sounds like thats a wolfs top speed (Dash).
60 kmh (average of 56-54) is about 55 feets per second giving a Dash BMR of 110 as each round is 2 seconds. The wolfs normal BMR then is 22' (110/5) which is same speed as the riding dog. Hmm maybe the riding dogs speed aren't so unreasonable after all. But the dogs in M:aFG instead have very unreasonable BMRs. (Unless it is something like a Dachshund ) Either way a wolf is between 51"-63" in length, using the normal way to determine BMR (using the length of 63") would result in 9' (8'+1'). All the Wolves, Dogs in HARP and M:aFG seem to have BMRs that doesn't come from the established rules to calculate BMRs except the dogs in M:aFG which use their height instead of length which doesn't give good/realistic numbers at all.

I don't mind the numbers not being realistic as long as they are consistent. But as shown these numbers are not even that.

[TwilightKing]

If the speed is 8' per second, then it's top speed would be 27mph, not far off from the wolf example you cited.

Rasyr would have to answer why the riding dog's BMR is 22, honestly it doesn't make much sense compared to the wolf and the two dogs in M:aFG (domestic and war).

[Erik Sharma]

I could survive with the riding dog having a BMR of 22 if the argument it's one of those breeds that have speed in their genes. Although that rarely gives a dog enough build to carry much load (Greyhound for example). Checking up the info on Greyhounds on wikipedia it's not uncommon for them to reach speeds excess of 59 feet per second (BMR of 23'+).

But I do agree that a wolf should have the higher BMR. Not counting the M:aFG dogs ofcourse since they don't make much sense at all.
Well it's time for bed now but I'll take the HARP book with me to read and see if I have missed something.

[Marc R]

Keep in mind that a hippo can outrun a mouse, despite the hippo being big and fat. . . .stride length, much like with Humans and BMR, is a dramatic factor in overall speed.

So a wolf the size of a small pony would likely run a bit faster than your run of the mill real world wolf.

The top 20 list of fastest dog breeds is led by the 40-45mph grehound and whippet, but almost all the other dogs on the list are essentially just large and thus long legged. Goblins are moderately heavy, so I'd assume their riding wolves would be a bit bigger than a Grey Wolf, and thus proportionately faster.

Grey wolves can run at 35mph, and have been observed running 20mph for many hours in a continuous lope chasing down prey.

Greyhound 45mph is 132 feet per round, even assuming that's a Dash, that's a BMR of 26.4.

Wolf 35mph as a dash would give a BMR of 20.5

Wolf 20mph as a continuous run (x2) implies a BMR of 29.3

Scaling up for longer legs might give you more, if you needed them to be faster. . .keep in mind that horses can out sprint wolves, but like human runners, the wolves will run the horse into the ground over the long haul.

[Erik Sharma]

Yeah thats what I figured out when crunching the numbers from the HARP book. Those figures are not that unrealistic when comparing to real world numbers.

But it makes the BMRs of the dogs in M:aFG of 4' and 6' even stranger though and makes me wonder if they followed a system for the BMRs in the HARP book or just picked real world numbers that would fit.
In M:aFG it seems they have used the dogs low height according to the rules to get those ridicolus slow BMRs.

Seems like the only option for getting some realistic numbers (or atleast better result) is to just use real world numbers, convert the move from the SRD (as Twillight King suggested) or as I did use the dogs length of 5' feet which gave a BMR of 9' although a bit on the low end but still acceptable.

Also spend some time reading in the HARP book and found that the talent Blazing Speed adds 5' to BMR so maybe it have been used in some of the cases.

[Erik Sharma]

Well just thought of something else. If you compare the move of 50' per round (from the SRD) to a unencumbered humans move of 60' per round from the D&D3,5 or Pathfinder rulebook.

An average human in HARP has a BMR of 10' so 5/6 parts of that would be 8-9' (8,33.....) which is in line with what I got by calculating the dogs BMR by using it's length of 5'.

Now I just need someone to come in with the Official Rules Hammer and set us straight on how it should be so I can decide on which ruling I should go for. 

[Marc R]

A person outrunning a wolf seems to indicate bad data. The record 100m dash speeds don't break 30mph, and record marathon speeds are around 13mph. That's for peak shape world class athlete humans, who would be run down by a wolf at either of those speeds.

[Erik Sharma]

I agree!

Just thought about the Human/Dog comparison from the d20 SRD but as seen even in those numbers there are flaws. Especially the fact that every unencumbered human can sprint for 27 mph and that would be faster than the world record at 100m at 9,68s. Heck running 100m in 10s flat is not something not many can do and even then you would only run at 22mph.

Ahh well now I feel we are getting a bit offtopic.
So far my options are:

• Use the estrablished rules in M:aFG and would get a BMR of 4'-6'
• Use the length of the dog and the formula from M:aFG that would get a BMR of 9'. This would preserve the human/dog ratio from the d20 system.
• Just convert the Speed from Pathfinder to HARP BMR directly and get a BMR of 16'. As established a realistic and playable number for a dog/wolf like creature.
• Another option would be a mix of Option 2 and assume that most quadrupeds would have the Blazing Speed Talent resulting in a BMR of 14'. Close to the number you would get in Option 3. Just below the BMR of the HARP Wolf, which is something I am ok with and would be within the rules at the same time.

Breaking it down like this I will probably go with Option 4 until I hear some sort of Official Ruling. Doing the same to the Dogs (in M:aFG) would result in similar BMR's just under the HARP Wolf BMR which would be ok with me.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It has been a number of years since I first wrote up the stuff for HARP. So, it would be nearly impossible to give reasons much of what was done back then.

IIRC, four-legged creatures got a bonus to BMR for being a quadruped. And Blazing Speed may have been a part of it as well.

As for the BMRs of critters in the core rulebook, it is possible that they were based off of the RM BMRs originally (i.e. 22'/rnd in HARP == 110'/rnd in RM).

[TwilightKing]

Well just thought of something else. If you compare the move of 50' per round (from the SRD) to a unencumbered humans move of 60' per round from the D&D3,5 or Pathfinder rulebook.

An average human in HARP has a BMR of 10' so 5/6 parts of that would be 8-9' (8,33.....) which is in line with what I got by calculating the dogs BMR by using it's length of 5'.

Human base speed is 30 feet per round. d20 allows for two move actions in a combat round, which is equivalent to a hustle. Wolf is still faster (and that's as much d20 as I'll pull in here )

[Erik Sharma]

Human base speed is 30 feet per round. d20 allows for two move actions in a combat round, which is equivalent to a hustle. Wolf is still faster (and that's as much d20 as I'll pull in here )
[/quote]

Checked it up and you are right! Guess I have been of d20 for so long now I have forgotten much of the basics hehe.

[TwilightKing]

Happy to help.

Coincidently, I am also running Runelords using HARP! Just getting started, so if you want to share conversion notes, feel free to contact me.

[Erik Sharma]

Happy to help.

Coincidently, I am also running Runelords using HARP! Just getting started, so if you want to share conversion notes, feel free to contact me.

Cool!
Haven't gotten to far on the conversion yet. But most of the stuff is pretty straightforward, just multiplying the DCs and stuff with 5 to get appropiate HARP levels on difficulties and stuff.. I am recreating all the NPCs and New Creatures from scratch though. So far haven't done that many. But so far I have created Goblin Warchanter (Goblin Harper), Goblin Commando (Goblin Ranger), Goblin Dog and Tsuto Kaijitsu (Half-Elf Rouge 1/Monk 2). Skipped making new Goblins since the basic ones in the HARP book would do just fine. Next in line for creation are the Sinspawn that will be an entirely new creature for HARP.

[Erik Sharma]

Well some time have passed since I last posted on this. This have given me some time to mull over the problem and I actually think I am on to something.

Well first I read through the descriptions in M:aFG on the Barghest and the Cerebus Hound. They are both Medium Size like the other "normal" dogs in the book and both have BMRs of 14'. This made me realize that the other dogs BMR are probably errors and should be 14' and 16' which would bring them in line with the Wolf, Barghest & Cerebus Hound. The Riding Dog in the core HARP book still have a nasty BMR of 22', but that is probably an unusally large dog with a BMR of 17' and Blazing Speed on top of that. It doesn't have a listing of all it's Talents but seems like a good explanation as anything.

It's hard to get these numbers even if you use Body Length or Height. But I stumbled over an excel sheet in the Vault (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item676) where they seem to have tried to resolve similar issues.

Well bouncing the numbers a little it seems like most of the fast quadrupeds calculates their BMR normally using their Body Height but add +10' to the result to count for their different build or you can use the 2x Body Height and just add 5' which would yeld similar results. The second option seem to be the better one since you would get a more belivable size for the Riding Dog at 97cm instead of over 1m.

Then you would end up with 14' which is the same as the "corrected" BMRs for Domestic Dog, Barghest and Cerebus Hound. And not to far from the Wolf & War Dog BMR of 16'.

So I think might be the way to go for me. This way my Goblin Dog would end up with a BMR of 14' (using either of the options above) which do sound belivable enough by me.