Topic: High level PCs versus multiple low level foes

[Lord Garth]

This is a topic that every so often surfaces in Rolemaster. Players complain their powerful level 20 fighters or spell users have a lot of problems figthing a sizeable group of lowbies.

On my last gaming session, I allowed my PCs to be level 20 for an almighty three rounds. After the initial amazement as I handed them their "new" character sheets, they realized they still might be overrun by the oppossing level 13 monsters.

I view this as "working as intended" most of the time, until three level 10 archers have a decent possibility of downing a level 30 characters.

When I pit PCs against a stronger foe, I usually make most (or all) his DB magical, and thus it doesn't really get split. I've been thinking that, perhaps, a middle ground could be reached where, when facing much lower level foes, some or all of the PC's DB wouldn't get divided. Has anyone experimented with something of the kind at all?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Regarding DB -- A character's DB (not including shield or parrying) is against all foes, regardless of their number and their position (attackers get positional bonuses, but their position does not adversely affect the target's DB).

Shield -- I normally allow Shield DB against foe to the front and the shield side (i.e. not against the weapon side). I do, however, allow for a Gift/Talent that allows the shield to be used even better (i.e. against all foes, except those to the rear). The important thing to remember is that a combatant is NOT standing still, so he will be able to position the shield accordingly, to some degree.

Parrying -- I allow characters with high ranks in weapons to make multiple attacks. The character may make one extra attack against up to one additional foe for every 10 ranks in the given weapon skill (i.e. 20 ranks allows for up to 3 attacks against up to 3 foes).

For each attack beyond the first, they get a -20 to their OB. For each foe beyond the first to be attacked, they get an additional -10 (i.e. 1 attack against each of 2 foes is a -30 to OB, 2 attacks against a single foe is -20). Once the modifiers have been applied, the player must then split his character's OB among the attacks to be made. He may then parry against each given foe separately (note: multiple attacks against a single foe are all reduced equally, just like with TWC). Also note: that if making multiple attacks, there is no such thing as a Full Parry (Full Parry usually gives +10 to DB beyond the weapon skill - at least in my games). (Note: in my games, I also allow a Gift that allows for this to be done, but with the full (modified) OB for each attack rather than it being split among the different attacks).

Thus, if Joe's Fighter has 20 ranks and a total OB of 150, and he wants to make attacks/parries against 3 foes, that means that his OB is modified by -60 (2 extra foes @ -20 each, and 2 extra attacks @ -10 each). His remaining OB (90) may then be split as he wishes between each foe. Joe decides to split it equally 30 OB against each. Joe also decides to put 25 of each attack into parrying for 2 of the attacks while only using 10 points in parrying the third (the guy on his shield side).

Now if Joe were only facing 2 foes, and he still wanted to make 3 attacks, his modified OB would be 100 (-40 due to 2 extra attacks and -10 for only 1 extra foe). Jue decides to put 25 into the single attack against the one foe, 40 and 35 respectively against the other foe. He decides not to parry the attack from the foe who receives 1 attack, but he is going to put 20 points into parrying the attack from the guy who will be receiving 2 attacks. This reduces his OB for those two attacks to 20 and 15 respectively (since the OB of multiple attacks against a single foe are both reduced equally when parrying).

(Note: Joe could have done just a single attack against that second foe and had a higher amount to assign to parrying, but for some reason he decided that he wanted to make 2 attacks instead of 1).

Anyways...... that is how I handle such things, and it works out fairly well. 

[Cormac Doyle]

Umm - I don't care how "high level" your knight is; my mob of 20 untrained "level 1" farmers with pitch forks should have at least a 50-50 chance of taking him down ... and equally, even one trained (lvl 6) Yeoman (archer) should wipe the floor with him if the combat starts at range.

That's reality ... and Rolemaster's tag line was always "Get real, Get Rolemaster"

If you want to allow split DB/etc - look at the combat styles in MAC or Combat Companion ... they give that type of ability.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That's reality ... and Rolemaster's tag line was always "Get real, Get Rolemaster"

Umm.. that was RMSS/RMFRP's tagline, not the tagline of all versions of Rolemaster. 

[Lord Garth]

I view things a little differently, Cormac. In fact, a mob of 20 level 1 farmers armed with pitchforks would be cannon fodder against a lot of magic users: area effect spells + fly spell= Yumm.

Rolemaster's own open/low ended combat system makes sure there's always a chance things will pan out differently than they "should". However, as I noted above, I still find it when engaging in these type of encounters a little, unsatisfying. Real or not.

The house rule I'm looking into would simply be to divide 10DB less per every 5 levels of difference between the engaged parties (round down).

Two level 5 thugs facing a level 15 warrior would then have a harder time. Two level 12 warriors would still be in a good position unless the level 15 warrior got lucky as there wouldn't be any advantadges with one such rule.

The underlying assumption is that, of course, a better warrior doesn't just strike harder, but also his movement is far harder to predict for an unskilled opponnent. This doesn't apply in a small, cramped, space, but it does IMO in other settings.

[bottg]

I view things a little differently, Cormac. In fact, a mob of 20 level 1 farmers armed with pitchforks would be cannon fodder against a lot of magic users: area effect spells + fly spell= Yumm.

Maybe.  But against a knight?  Rear attacks etc are going to result in several crits per round and even though the knight will take down on average 1 peasant per round, the fact that hits top out, and the random nature of crits will soon do for the knight.  Penalties, bleeding etc will soon wear down the knight.

[Lord Garth]

True Bottg, and that's the right outcome in my opinion. I'm not saying higher level PCs should be invincible by the way, Rolemaster's combat system is geared so as to make fights deadly for all parties involved, and it works. I'm just looking for a way to give higher levels characters a little of their DB back when confronting multiple low level foes. Will they still be toast? Maybe. But if a level 30 warrior can kill a level 15 dragon, he should be able to handle 10 level one farmers. At least to a degree.

Or maybe not, just pooling ideas here XD

[Marc R]

I rarely make it to 30th level, but when I do, I generally am a person of great importance, and thus generally I have at least a squad of bodyguards trailing around with me.

If two 5th level thugs want to jump my 30th level cleric, they'll need to get past my four 8th level temple guardians first. . .and that assumes my 30th level cleric is out and about on the DL, since, as someone akin to the Pope, he generally has couple dozen or more lackeys running around him wasting his time, and a company sized security detail. . .

IMO, getting a 30th level character alone is like 90% of the hard part. . .the thing that makes a 30th level character so hard to kill, is that unless you pull off some dark knight scheme to get them alone, or jump them with a small army, the odds are never in your favor. . .

Like the 30th level knight, where's his sword brothers, his squire, his page, his servants, his men at arms? Likely he can take a nap while his hirelings and followers deal with the mob of pesants.

[markc]

The underlying assumption is that, of course, a better warrior doesn't just strike harder, but also his movement is far harder to predict for an unskilled opponnent. This doesn't apply in a small, cramped, space, but it does IMO in other settings.

 The above is true IMO as they have higher OB's (generally) which they can move to DB.


MDC

[yammahoper]

True Bottg, and that's the right outcome in my opinion. I'm not saying higher level PCs should be invincible by the way, Rolemaster's combat system is geared so as to make fights deadly for all parties involved, and it works. I'm just looking for a way to give higher levels characters a little of their DB back when confronting multiple low level foes. Will they still be toast? Maybe. But if a level 30 warrior can kill a level 15 dragon, he should be able to handle 10 level one farmers. At least to a degree.

Or maybe not, just pooling ideas here XD

You want the Cinimatic Combat Rules from the MAC.  Basically, if a PC's combined OB/DB double that of their foes, then one attack is applied against three foes AND the crits can be modified by number of ranks in the weapon skill.  It is not unlogical to assume then that parry would be applied against three foes.

We liked that so much that in my game, parry is now applied against all frontal attacks (for hex users, thats the three hex lines the PC is facing).  The shield can still only be applied against one foe.

The result has been a nice increase in DB abilities without over powering DB, nuetering NPS's or removing the danger of a flank/back attack.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I view things a little differently, Cormac. In fact, a mob of 20 level 1 farmers armed with pitchforks would be cannon fodder against a lot of magic users: area effect spells + fly spell= Yumm.

This has nothing to do with levels though, but everything to do with the fact area weapons > target weapons and range weapons > melee weapons. It's why a cannon is better than a gun, and a gun better than a sword, independently of the concept of "level".

It's also why stories with "heroes" would have some kind of "stormtrooper effect" because, realistically, a dozen level 1 gunmen firing at a level 20 character while using rapid-fire guns would just reduce him to a set of holes connected by airstreams in a matter of seconds.

[Ecthelion]

This is a topic that every so often surfaces in Rolemaster. Players complain their powerful level 20 fighters or spell users have a lot of problems figthing a sizeable group of lowbies.

Is that really a problem or isn't this realistic and/or good for the game? I think it depends on the number and level of the "lowbies". E.g. I would expect a 20th level warrior to win combat against a group of five 1st level characters and this was usually the case when my few high-level characters faced such opponents, but I would not expect that the same 20th level warrior survives combat again two dozen 5th level opponents.

On my last gaming session, I allowed my PCs to be level 20 for an almighty three rounds. After the initial amazement as I handed them their "new" character sheets, they realized they still might be overrun by the oppossing level 13 monsters.

I view this as "working as intended" most of the time, until three level 10 archers have a decent possibility of downing a level 30 characters.

Both, that a bunch of 13th level monster are dangerous for a group of 20th level PCs and that three 10th level archers could take down a 30th level character, is OK IMHO. Level 10 is already a decent level of experience and due to Rolemasters diminishing returns in terms of skill rank bonus the OB of a 30th level character is not so much higher (at least not double or more) than the OB of a 10th level character.

So can you describe a line-up that you regard as problematic, aside from the 3 10th level against 1 30th level? To be honest I can't see your problem.

[Dark Schneider]

I rarely make it to 30th level, but when I do, I generally am a person of great importance, and thus generally I have at least a squad of bodyguards trailing around with me.

That should not be necessary, you can't depend on other NPCs all the time, as it is supposed you are powerfull by your own.

I think the direct solution is DB, then by default allow to use OB for DB (parry) against any foe, I always thought in OB like "how good I combat" and in parry like "hit evading" and not only like "put weapon between", so that OB of my "combat skill" used in "hit evading", can be interpreted in character moving to evade side or rear attacks, attacks in anyway general.

So you have 150 OB, fight against 20 farmers, they usually can have 20 OB (the race ranks), for space limit, they can attack you maximum 4-5 per round, you use half parry, 75 for DB and 75 OB to attack (each strike is mortal for a farmer), then split that 75 in attacks received, that is added to your fixed DB (applied to all attacks).

Remember you can parry missiles if you have a shield, so you can run against the archer and in 1-2 rounds you are in front of him, missiles have that advantage of range, that is its purpose.

What about if archer is over a high rock?, can you climb?, probably not if you want to survive, but it is important to remember in RM level doesn't make the combat, it is much more important the strategy, and most players love it, you can't win all the combat only "because I am level 30", that type of combat within attacks slide off you is for AD&D, not RM.

I can ensure you as we have lived it, a bad strategy and we lost 1-2 characters in a combat against few low level foes, but with a good strategy we a group of 4-5 (max) characters at that time and succed, with no casualties (only a few wounds), in the following situations against:

• 18 bandits outdoor
• 30 orcs in a tower
• numerous group, we fled
• 8 mid-level bandints and by surprise (they was supposed to be our allies), we improvised a fast but good strategy
• great numbers of orcs in a big property, combining indoor, outdoors, doors, windows, 2 floors, etc.

Using area spells, walls (spells) at the correct place, moving the group in a strategic position (shields facing archers and spell casters behind), using your summoned creatures as your shield, placing with a wall (rock or something) behind you, etc. When you know what to do and the moment to do, the combat balance quickly move to your side after you kill soon some of foes while receive attacks in a good defensive position (combine spells, placing, covers including summons, etc.).

Strategy, strategy, is your best friend in combat  And apply in some way the superior OB of the high level char for the purpose, I proposed one way at the begining and I think is balanced because you can't be immortal only with level.

[Marc R]

I assume this mostly comes up when a PC has chosen to run off on their own, or you're running a game with 1-2 players. I say that because a crowd of PCs unless they are tactical idiots, will cover each other's flanks and rears by forming a circle vs a horde of low level enemies. . .which also limits considerably the number of attachers per defender. (So, already my first "response" to this question is "where are your PC friends"?)

"Geese and ganders" become the issue for me, looking at the replies above, once you jack the DB up, when the three 5th level PCs jump the 15th level NPC villain, they find they can't hit without an open end, and he grinds them into hero jelly.

Unless you make it a "Marvel Shield" rule that only applies to protect PCs from NPCs, then the rule, when applied in reverse, will make the three 10th level PCs on the 30th level dragon an non winnable situation. That being the problem with tampering with the baseline mechanics, unless you choose to just do it for the PCs, you change the complaint from "Why can't I survive being attacked by four people 1/4 my level" to "How come we just can't seem to ever beat a high level rival, even when we take them 4 on 1?"

OTOH, when dealing with higher level NPC villains, they often come with minions, lackeys and bodyguards, which often the party end up having to kill first before they can get a chance to surround the chief Villain and take them down. . .which is a hint-hint, nudge-nudge to the PCs. . . if you're not travelling with PC backup, travel with NPC backup. You're a 20th level Cleric, just like that one you killed back at 5th level, and just like him, you should be surrounded by worshipers and bodyguards most of the time.

Because going around alone is begging to get dog piled and killed. . .it's how you made your bones back when you were a low level PC, by dog piling high level NPCs and killing them. . .remember your roots and make sure not to get caught the same way as all those other high level goons you killed in your career. . .and remember what all the recurring villains (and thus, the smart villians) had in common. . .those were the ones, who when they noticed the PCs carving up the bodyguards like prime rib on feast day . . . .they ran away to fight another day. . . .

So I'd advocate not only having bodyguards, but listen to them when they start screaming "They're too tough! We'll hold them off while you run for it Milord!"