Topic: Dropping Mentalism

[Modric]

I’m considering eliminating the mentalism realm in a game I’m putting together.  I don’t think it meshes well with a Medieval Europe themed campaign. I wanted to see if anyone has tried this and get any thoughts on how it would affect game balance, game play, etc. Thx. 

[yammahoper]

I've ran every possible combo of spell learning, development and access you can think of.  None were absolutely terrible.

You can pool the mentalism and essence list.  Allow mentalism base list to be picked as additional base list by pure essence users.  Channeling could/should be limited to clergy/blessed.

The best way to control the flavor is to control what spell list spell users have access to.  Make them find new tombs to learn new spell list and keep a close eye on what they pick to start.  You may even want to limit how many list can be learned in the beginning.

Movement spells of all kinds will be very flashy in a middle ages type setting, even more so than blasting spells.  Information spells and subtle utility spells will fit perfectly and provide the air of mysticism I envision in middle ages europe spell users.

Summoning spells can be problrmatic.  A type I demon is immmune to normal weapons and will be an engine of destruction.  Be wary.  A summoned wolf or bear is more managable and perhaps more traditional also.

Mix it up.  Have fun, and everything will fall into place.

[rdanhenry]

You might want to try to pick up a copy of the RM2 Alchemy Companion (not to be confused with the newer Treasure Companion that reused the cover art). It has material that would be very useful for running a medieval European styled campaign, both in terms of background information and professions/spell lists for 'historical' style alchemists.

[yammahoper]

Castle and Ruins would be a very good sourcebook too.  Excellent info on castles, wards, economy and labor.

[kevinmccollum]

A type I demon is immmune to normal weapons

I may be a bit ignorant on this but I don't remember a single type I demon that was immune to normal weapons. Am I wrong on this?

[Moriarty]

Unless I am wrong, the earliest versions of Rolemaster (or maybe it was M.E.R.P.?) had only Channeling and Essence. The Mentalism realm was introduced later. The idea of going back to only Channeling and Essence has crossed my mind several times, since, and this is just my personal opinion of course, Mentalism is by far the least interesting realm, and the contrast between divine magic and elementalism makes for a more flavorful magic system than a 'trinity' magic system without much interaction between the realms.

I can see some problems with removing a realm from the modern least outdated versions of RM, such as Mentalism professions having Pr as prime stat (would have to be changed if the professions are still used), Mentalism professions can wear armor, and have a low cost in armor skills - that would seem odd if they were changed to another realm, so maybe those costs should change, and they would then have to be compensated somehow.
A 'clean' way to remove the realm could be to remove all Mentalism professions as well - then you have a system with less options, but more consistensy.

The Pr stat would be even less useful than it is now.
Special abilites, spell descriptions, items, etc. that mention Mentalism would have to be changed or ignored.

It would probably require some work no matter how you do it, but it could work, I think.

[RandalThor]

I’m considering eliminating the mentalism realm in a game I’m putting together.  I don’t think it meshes well with a Medieval Europe themed campaign. I wanted to see if anyone has tried this and get any thoughts on how it would affect game balance, game play, etc. Thx.

Actually, if you are trying to keep magic from being flashy (I don't know if you are, just saying), then Mentalism should be the primary magic type. Mystics are the perfect profession to use for wizards like Merlin, as it seemed most of their magic wasn't tossing fireballs around, but subtly influencing others in order to get them to do what the magician wants. That and oracles (Seers & Astrologers) are a common type of spell user in mythic tales from that era - maybe not quite as much as in ancient times (Rome, Greece, Mesopotamia, etc..), but they still showed up fairly regularly (the Three Hags/Crones?).

and this is just my personal opinion of course, Mentalism is by far the least interesting realm,

Funny, I am the opposite, I tend to drift towards Mentalism more than the others. Especially if I just want to have my non-spell user have a few spells. The first 2 spells on the Anticipation Spell list for RMSS/FRP are Anticipate Missile and Anticipate Blow, both giving you a +50 DB with the use of an instantaneous spell (10% action in prior round). Add that to the abilities gained from the first couple spells on the Cloaking Spell List and you get a nice fantasy version of Batman. (I had a 7th level fighter with those spells, it was awesome.) Oh, you need light? How about the first couple of spells on the Brilliance Spell List: Projected Light and Glow. Very handy. Not that the other magic types don't have some cool low level spells, it just seems as though you have to either buy one rank for nothing first, or go to 4th or 5th level before you get to something really nice.

Plus, it is entirely plausible that the fighter using Anticipate Missile/Blow could be said to not even know they are doing it. Why is that guy so good? He thinks it is because of intense training (which doesn't hurt, for sure), but "actually" it is because he is subconsciously using his magic to keep from getting hurt, letting him use more of his OB to attack. Of course, the player probably knows, but that could be some of the roleplaying fun.

PS: I just noticed that this is under the RMC/2 heading. Not sure how it plays out in those rules - I tend to use the RMSS/FRP spell lists even if I use the RMC/2 rules for everything else.

[VladD]

On the subject of dropping Mentalism...I can't possibly understand why you would consider it more "medieval European" but one game system, based on RM that did that was indeedly Not-RM.
Essence has plenty of mind controlling spell lists, but it would also eliminated certain very useful hybrid and normal casters, such as Healers and lay healers (although they could be assigned to Chan. and Ess. respectively, easily)

One argument pro mentalism is that they were probably so subtle and useful that it appears they aren't present, but behind the scenes they are everywhere. Also kings would probably value a mentalist more than a magician or a cleric since creating fire from nothing is considered an act in league with Lucifer (which is pretty bad) and demons and undead weren't so common that your average feudal lord didn't encounter them, eliminating the need for a cleric, not to mention resurrection being RIGHT out, unless the cleric is posing as the Messiah returned.
This leaves the subtelity and usefulness of the mentalist to be the only magic user capable of operating. No flashy spells and the ability to read minds and control them is far more useful in that setting to avoid the pitchfork wielding, torch brandishing lynch mobs of frightened and irate peasants. (He turned my chickens in to newts!)

On demon invulnerability to normal weapons: no Pale I demon is not vulnerable to normal weapons...

[dutch206]

To me, Mentalism magic has always had more of an Asian feeling to it.  (It seems a very Zen Buddhist kind of thing to search for power from within.)

[yammahoper]

On demon invulnerability to normal weapons: no Pale I demon is not vulnerable to normal weapons...

To much DnD in my recent life it seems...yet comment still stands for any creature requiring magic to harm.  Normally PC's don't care, they have magic, but a GM would be remiss to not use such a power as a plot device, as the PC's family, friends and community probably DON'T have magic.

[intothatdarkness]

I've never had a problem with Mentalism, either. If you enforce the restrictions on armor wear and the like for the other realms, Mentalism becomes pretty attractive. As others have pointed out, Mentalists (no matter profession) can be pretty subtle and stealthy casters.

[arakish]

In our Udava campaign, my wife and I eliminated the Mentalism realm.  The gaming suffered nothing from it.  Besides, instead of the Mentalism realm, we had the Psionics from SM.

Currently, as yammahopper posted, I am again eliminating Mentalism, but I am pooling its lists in with both Channeling and Essence as they best fit.

To me, Mentalism magic has always had more of an Asian feeling to it.  (It seems a very Zen Buddhist kind of thing to search for power from within.)

Of which on my worlds, I have always used Psionics to imitate this "asian feeling/zen buddhist" kind of thing.

On demon invulnerability to normal weapons: no Pale I demon is not vulnerable to normal weapons...

To much DnD in my recent life it seems...yet comment still stands for any creature requiring magic to harm.  Normally PC's don't care, they have magic, but a GM would be remiss to not use such a power as a plot device, as the PC's family, friends and community probably DON'T have magic.

And although they may be invulnerable to harm, I still enforce that they feel "pain" from a hit, thus, they do lose some ConHits equal to x0.25, round off.  Also, I rule that normal non-magical silver will still harm such.

Mentalists subtlety can also be imitated through Psionics.  IMHO, I prefer Psionics to Mentalism.  But that is my opinion.  And IIRC, Psionicists can also wear armor.  Or, at least I rule they can.

rmfr

[kevinmccollum]

On demon invulnerability to normal weapons: no Pale I demon is not vulnerable to normal weapons...

Sorry, Pale I demons are vulnerable to normal weapons.

[Modric]

Thanks for the great feedback everyone.

P.S. Love the Adept profession in RM2 Alchemy Companion.

[rdanhenry]

On demon invulnerability to normal weapons: no Pale I demon is not vulnerable to normal weapons...

Sorry, Pale I demons are vulnerable to normal weapons.

That's what he said.

[Witchking20k]

Pale I demons can be hurt by normal weapons.

Third times the charm, right!?  LOL