Topic: toning down mosters

[kreider204]

Well, again, I myself wouldn't worry about making monsters conform to the rules for making PCs.  It just doesn't make sense to treat many of the monsters as though they have any sort of professional or adolescent training, etc.

[Arioch]

Well, again, I myself wouldn't worry about making monsters conform to the rules for making PCs.  It just doesn't make sense to treat many of the monsters as though they have any sort of professional or adolescent training, etc.

I fully agree: monsters are not PCs and they should not follow the same rules used for character creation (and monsters creation rules presented in MaFG are quite different from PC creation rules...).
Monsters does not use DPs, nor have to use professions and professional talents IMHO...

[Fidoric]

I remember from my past years of playing WHFRP that they have something like templates to create champions and heroes monsters with boosted stats. Maybe some templates with maluses (eg: youngling, OB-30...) and some with bonuses could do the trick of easily turning a basic monster in an up- or downgraded one.

[RandalThor]

Fidoric brings up one of the few aspects of DnD (3.X mostly) that I actually liked: templates. The fact that you take template, like ghost, and add it to an existing creature, like gnoll, and you get a gnoll-ghost. Very handy and you could further modify it by increasing it's HD and stuff to beef it up if you need to.

As far as monsters being created like PCs, that's fine, just don't make them from the exact same stock, i.e., fighter. As different monsters should have different base stocks. For example: An ogre would come from the fighter, while a mind-flayer would come from the mage and a doppelganger from either rogue or thief (either). Some extremely powerful ones like Dragons of Kingship (and 'regular' dragons, maybe) could have more than one 'base-profession' where they gain the benefits of all listed classes. I wouldn't go crazy with this, but it could be said that a Dragon of Kingship could be both a fighter and a mage.

Also, this means that to make a different 'type' of creature, all one has to do is change their profession and base abilities (Lightning Reflexes, Sense Magic, skill bonues, favored categories, etc.) and rearrange some skills and there they are. Of course, I would do this the easy way and just assign them the abilities I think they should have and damn the torpe...err, or rather, damn the rules, it's my game.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi,

A Ghost from the Monster:A Field Guide is stated as being a Level 5 Human Fighter with the Ghost Template applied.

In this way you can have a dragon ghost ( ) or a goblin vampire! (also uses a template!)

I LOVE HARP in that you can use these templates and create your own monster with stats and templates and DP's for Skills and talents... Especially important for creating a unique BBEG Bossman for the final fight!
Otherwise it can become very predictable when characters fight the same L5 ghost and L2 goblin and L8 orc, etc... The only difference becomes the weapon and armour weilded against them!


Again, this is the PRIMARY reason why I love HARP (that and the spell system).
Otherwise I'd simply play RM...

[butscharoni]

I always found the HARP Monster to strong, especially for beginning characters.
I like the Monster creation system and also agree, that i prefer to see how the designers created their monsters vs. figuring it out all by myself (And often, it is just random and there were no guidelines).

But the resulting Monsters in HARP are normally stronger thanaverage beginning characters and that compared with the flavour text (So, Goblins travel in war groups, do they? What was it? 10 to 20?) makes the monster not only a threat to the PCs but to the entire sentient population of the world.

While i like gritty and monsters with a purpose that are not just PC cannon fodder, i always feel that HARP is taking this to far and making the monsters much to powerfull.

Love the template system though, and templates for weaklings/heroes etc. would really be great! I should look into this for my next session...

[RandalThor]

The d20 version of The Iron Kingdoms have something like this in their Monsternomicons. (Which are fantastic books!)

They have Alpha and other templates that you apply to the basic creature to reflect the ones bigger and badder, as well as specialized, such as hunter. Very cool.

[Arioch]

In case anyone missed it, I've posted a very simple "weakling" template in the first page of this topic:

Weakling Template

Weaklings are toned down versions of normal monsters (youngs, elderly, impaired or just below the average monsters).
The weakling Template can be applied to any creature.
Effects of the template are as follows:

- Slow: Weaklings' reactions are slower than those of their normal counterparts. Weaklings Initiative is reduced by 10 to a minimum of 0.
- Wimp:Weaklings are less resistant than normal, the amount of damage which they can endure is limited. Halve weaklings' starting HP, additionaly weakling may receive a maximum of only one rank per level in the Endurance skill. Weaklings are more easly affected by harmful effects,too. They receive a penalty of -20 to all RRs.
- Weak: Weaklings are, well, weak! Their attacks are neither so skilled, nor so powerful. Weaklings receive only half of the OB of their normal counterparts.
- Unskilled: Weakling are not skilled combatants, they cannot have any of the following talents: Shield Training, Survival Instinct or Reverberating Strenght.

I've also submitted some templates to the GC (including a Champion template), don't know when and if they'll be published, though, so check out the next issues! 

[Fidoric]

Always nice to see some guys doing the job I'd like to do but lack the time to...
Thank you very much in advance for your publication in TGC !

[kreider204]

I've come up with another solution: Use RMC Creatures & Treasures!  RM and HARP are supposed to be more or less compatible (and there's a conversion guide in the vault, it shows what you need to do to convert monsters - very little as it turns out).  And then just look at the difference - I'll use Hits as an example (which according to the conversion guide doesn't require any conversion):

Kobold: RM = 30, HARP = 70
Goblin: RM = 40, HARP = 70
Hobgoblin: RM = 60, HARP = 95
Orc: RM = 50 (lesser orc) or 70 (greater orc), HARP = 130

"Toned down," I'd say!

[jasonbrisbane]

I've come up with another solution: Use RMC Creatures & Treasures!  RM and HARP are supposed to be more or less compatible (and there's a conversion guide in the vault, it shows what you need to do to convert monsters - very little as it turns out).  And then just look at the difference - I'll use Hits as an example (which according to the conversion guide doesn't require any conversion):

Kobold: RM = 30, HARP = 70
Goblin: RM = 40, HARP = 70
Hobgoblin: RM = 60, HARP = 95
Orc: RM = 50 (lesser orc) or 70 (greater orc), HARP = 130

"Toned down," I'd say!

I like it.

Works for me! 

[kreider204]

If anyone is interested, I collated the relevant info - also, I had to add something, since the conversion didn't explain how to convert C&T AT(DB) to HARP DB, so I used my best understanding of it to come up with something that I think is close enough.

To convert C&T monster stats to the following HARP stats:

- Level: use C&T level number, ignore the letter

- Size: use C&T size

- BMR: use C&T Base Rate / 8

- Initiative: use C&T AQ (under “Movement / Speed”)
----- IN = -16, CR = -12, VS = -8, SL = -4, MD = +0, MF = +4, FA = +8, VF = +12, BF = +16

- DB: for an approximate conversion, take the C&T AT (Armor Type), multiply it by 3, then add the C&T DB.

- Hits: as per C&T (no conversion necessary, use the number and ignore the letter)

- Attacks:
----- No conversion for OB number is necessary
----- Some weapon info is self-explanatory (e.g., “Missile” means “missile weapon”)
----- Some weapon info is explained in the C&T codes (e.g., “sl” means “sling”)
----- For non-weaponry attacks:
---------- The first letter is the attack size.
--------------- T(iny), S(mall), M(edium), L(arge), H(uge)
---------- The next 2 or 3 letters are the attack type.  Consult the RM to HARP conversion sheet in the HARP vault (or just use common sense) to determine on which HARP critical table to roll.

- #Enc: as per C&T

- Outlook: as per C&T

- Treasure: as per C&T (or GM’s discretion)

- Stamina: 2.5 x ((level / 2) + 3) + Size mod*

- Will: 5 x (level / 4)

- Magic: 2.5 x ((level / 2) x (1 / Size mod*) + Init / 4 )) x IQ mod**)

* Size mod: T = 0.2, S = 0.5, M = 1, L = 1.5, H = 2
** IQ Mod: NO = 0, VL = 1.05, LO = 1.10, LI = 1.20, IN = 1.30, MD = 1.45, AV = 1.55, AA = 1.60, SU = 1.65, HI = 1.70, VH = 1.75, EX = 1.80

[kreider204]

After looking things over (RMC v. HARP initiative, etc.), I think the initiative modifiers should be a little different than those in the conversion guide (as collated above).  This seems right to me:

IN = -20, CR = -15, VS = -10, SL = -5, MD = +0, MF = +5, FA = +10, VF = +15, BF = +20