Topic: Converting Stone Mastery from RMSS ChCo to RMU

[Fingolfin80]

Hello guys,
      I'm trying to convert this spell list to RMU, but I find it hard because of power level. If I convert it "as is" the first level spell allow a hurling attack on the Ram table with size "small", but even applying rmu size modifications for the attack it seems really out of scale if compared with RMU Hurling 1, which is a level 10 mentalism spell that allow an attack on Sling Table.
Any  suggestion on how to make it more balanced?

[Hurin]

You could lower the size still further. In RMU, shock bolt is a diminutive lightning bolt, so you could make the attack diminutive, and it would be similar in power to Shock Bolt.

[jdale]

I just used it as-is, personally. Hurling is not very powerful for its level, but it's on an open list that has a lot of utility, not a list that is overall designed for offense. Think of it as a bonus effect and not as an illustration of what the list is about. Even compared to the bolts on the closed lists Fluid Elements, Luminous Elements, and Solid Elements, Hurling is a much less potent attack for its level.

[jdale]

You could lower the size still further. In RMU, shock bolt is a diminutive lightning bolt, so you could make the attack diminutive, and it would be similar in power to Shock Bolt.

A diminutive lightning bolt maxes out at 30FL vs AT1. A medium sling maxes out at 20FK. So a medium sling is already less potent than a shock bolt, because the base lightning bolt is one of the most powerful attacks.

[Fingolfin80]

You could lower the size still further. In RMU, shock bolt is a diminutive lightning bolt, so you could make the attack diminutive, and it would be similar in power to Shock Bolt.

A diminutive lightning bolt maxes out at 30FL vs AT1. A medium sling maxes out at 20FK. So a medium sling is already less potent than a shock bolt, because the base lightning bolt is one of the most powerful attacks.

I'm not sure If we are interpreting "as is" the same way, since you queote the sling table, while in the spell is ram, which is more powerful. Well, if you use sling I think it can work and I'll give it a try, while ram seems too much for a level 1 spell. It's true that it works only if there actually are stones to throw, but a wise player would bring some along.

[jdale]

Ram goes to 25FI against AT 1, it's still less than a shock bolt. That's even more true against armor; Ram gets its first critical vs AT 10 on a 116 with a max result of 14EI, but Shock Bolt gets first crit on a 95 with a max result of 24FL.

The 1st level spell is small, so it's a small ram attack, for a max of 19EI. It's pretty good for a 1st level spell. I could see dropping it another size. The 4th level spell is medium, it's not quite as good as a shock bolt but that doesn't seem inappropriate for a base list at this level.

It would also be appropriate to use the Rock table rather than Ram. Max result for a small Rock is 11DK.

I do interpret these spells as only attacking a single target, with the area of effect merely specifying where the stones are coming from. If it was attacking multiple targets, that would be a big boost.

[jdale]

Just to clarify, I have been using Ram. The PC who has it is not very good at directed spells, or at rolling, so it hasn't been an issue. I could see dropping the 1st level spell another size though (so -2 sizes for a Tiny attack).

[Hurin]

Ram goes to 25FI against AT 1, it's still less than a shock bolt. That's even more true against armor; Ram gets its first critical vs AT 10 on a 116 with a max result of 14EI, but Shock Bolt gets first crit on a 95 with a max result of 24FL.

Are you sure of those numbers? If a shock bolt is still a diminutive lightning bolt, that would mean that on the current RMU charts, it maxes out as 19E against AT 10 (a 38H, converted to .5 hits and -3 crit severities for size). The hit point discrepancy is I assume accounted for by the fact that you are raising hit points delivered by 25% on the final version of the charts, but I'm not sure why there is a critical discrepancy, and there is even a slight critical threshold discrepancy (a Shock Bolt starts getting crits at 98, not 95, vs. at 10, and Ram at 119, not 116).

I also assumed the elemental attacks would be radically toned down in the final version. I was under the impression that the current elemental attack charts had suffered from an error that made them considerably more deadly and damaging than intended. I'm not sure who it was who said that (I thought it was Matt). Is that not correct?

I note that while RMU has toned down the amount of damage weapons do, the existing charts actually make elemental attacks more deadly... often by a large margin. Compare a RM2 lightning bolt, which maxes out at 18G vs AT 20, to an RMU lightning bolt, which maxes out at 38H vs AT 10. The RMU version is actually doing more than double the hits it used to do (whereas many mundane weapons actually now do less damage in RMU). So it certainly seems like something is off here, which is another reason why I thought there is an error in the RMU elemental attack charts.

Given the existing and serious concerns about how powerful spell users are becoming in RMU, I would say that I don't think we want RMU to massively increase the damage elemental (spell) attacks do, while at the same time nerfing mundane weapons. In fact, I would say we probably want to do the opposite. I would like to see the hit point damage of mundane weapons increased by 100% (rather than 25%), but the hits and crits of elemental weapons should actually not be increased... if anything, they should be toned down considerably.

[Fingolfin80]

Just to clarify, I have been using Ram. The PC who has it is not very good at directed spells, or at rolling, so it hasn't been an issue. I could see dropping the 1st level spell another size though (so -2 sizes for a Tiny attack).

Seems legit.

It would also be appropriate to use the Rock table rather than Ram. Max result for a small Rock is 11DK.

I do interpret these spells as only attacking a single target, with the area of effect merely specifying where the stones are coming from. If it was attacking multiple targets, that would be a big boost.

the way I interpret the spell text, I would say it's single target but in many locations (since the stones hurled are many), that's were the Ram table comes from, I think. Your proposition about the Rock table is interesting, though.

Given the existing and serious concerns about how powerful spell users are becoming in RMU, I would say that I don't think we want RMU to massively increase the damage elemental (spell) attacks do, while at the same time nerfing mundane weapons. In fact, I would say we probably want to do the opposite. I would like to see the hit point damage of mundane weapons increased by 100% (rather than 25%), but the hits and crits of elemental weapons should actually not be increased... if anything, they should be toned down considerably.

My exact concern. I don't mind that magic users become more powerful with time, but I wouldn't make them overwhelming since the first levels.