Topic: Monk Questions

[Newbie]

I have a Player that has made a monk character and am wanting clarification on how his attacks work.

He has the following - 5th level monk, 18 ranks in martial arts strikes total skill bonus of 80, 18 ranks in martial arts combat style tiger claws total skill bonus of 116.

He uses two tiger claws so he gets two attacks, the first at full skill 116 and the second then at 96.

He has taken the Ambidexterity talent so now he does two attacks both at full skill 116.

If he activates Chi Defense he takes a minus 10 on all skills, this now makes his two attacks done at a skill of 106.

He then decides to do an extra attack against one opponent while still having Chi Defense active this then allows 3 attacks at a skill of 91 (-20 for an additional attack, reduced to only -15 due to being a 5th level monk)

If he was to then fight two opponents at once with Chi Defense active and decides to do two extra attacks for a total of four attacks with his four attacks he wants to do two on each opponent, this means he takes -40 for the two extra attacks, -10 for Chi defense and finally -10 for attacking two opponents totaling -60, for being a 5th level monk he can reduce the minus by 5 meaning he can take his skill of 116 down to 61 for each attack

Is this all correct with the maths stacking correctly??
Is there anything that I have missed??

[Thom @ ICE]

(Correction - to my original response)

The key errors are:
4 attacks are 4 attacks. It's not 2 extra attacks. It's 3 extra attacks. This makes -60 instead of -40. 
Start with lesser of two combat skills - therefore 80 is your base, not 116.

Start with what they are trying to do....
First he activates Chi Defense, then he wants to attack 2 opponents with a total of 4 attacks.

Then review the modifiers...
Chi Defense = -10 (-20 for Chi Defense reduced to -10 due to his being 5th level)
4 attacks = -60 (3 attacks more than 1, x20 penalty, applies to all attacks)
2 opponents = -10 (2 foes, x10 penalty per additional foe, applies to all attacks)
Tiger Claw Style = Slash-Medium attack
Offhand Penalty = 0 (-20, but countered by ambidexterity)
Monk penalty Reduction = +5 (5th level)
Skill Bonus = 80 (Lesser of two skills - Martial Arts Skill or Combat Style Skill)

Result - 4 attacks at +5

He'd be much better off to go with only 2 attacks (1 per foe) which would reduce the multiple attacks penalty by 40 and result in 2 attacks at +45 which is still a challenge considering they probably have armor.

[Newbie]

First of all, thanks for the speedy reply 

4 attacks are 4 attacks. It's not 2 extra attacks. It's 3 extra attacks. This makes -60 instead of -40.

I don't quite follow this, if a character has two weapons I.E. one in each hand, he can make two attacks, one with each weapon, (by having ambidexterity he also can make the two attacks with no minus to the off hand) with this the case his standard "fight" action is two attacks, by then using the monk ability to make extra attacks if he was to add one extra attack he would then gain no extra attacks because he is already doing two attacks from having two weapons and then he also takes a minus 20 to those attacks he has as standard anyway??? doesn't make sense.

Start with lesser of two combat skills - therefore 80 is your base, not 116

the rules for martial arts styles and maneuvers state - A character must have an equal or greater number of ranks in
either Martial Arts Strikes or Sweeps than in the style, and he
uses the style’s bonus as his Offensive Bonus (OB) for all attacks
and for any other uses of the style. - so why would the lower bonus of 80 be used???

With that being said it appears as though my error may be that I am saying because he is holding two weapons he gets two attacks when in fact this is not possible with the martial arts styles and maneuvers???
If this is the case then is this possible to be done and if so how???

[Thom @ ICE]

In order to make 2 attacks with 2 weapons he needs to use either 2-Weapon Combo or Paired Weapons (Martial Law).  Monks get that ability as a professional ability for their attacks, but the penalties still apply.

Ambidexterity simply allows him to do with his offhand at the same skill level as his strong hand.  It doesn't award an extra attack.

I stand corrected on the 116 vs 80.... I looked back on the Combat Style rules and not the Martial Arts Styles.  Combat Styles is the lesser. Martial Arts Styles is Style skill requiring at least equal # of ranks.  Not sure why they are different.... 
My apologies for that error...  I guess my speedy reply was a bit too fast.

[Newbie]

In order to make 2 attacks with 2 weapons he needs to use either 2-Weapon Combo or Paired Weapons (Martial Law).  Monks get that ability as a professional ability for their attacks, but the penalties still apply.

Ambidexterity simply allows him to do with his offhand at the same skill level as his strong hand.  It doesn't award an extra attack.

Ahh i see where my wires are crossed now, thanks for that.

Now comes the tricky part.....
Would you be able to gain an extra attack by using the combat style of paired weapons and the martial arts style of tiger claws combined, this would be a pricey invest for the character to keep all three of these skills at equal ranks but the question of combining styles comes into play, possibly usable with a homebrewed talent??

[Thom @ ICE]

I have never seen it done before... but I see no reason not to allow it.
Since they are both the same weapon, the correct style would be Paired Weapons (found in Martial Law - see description below).  I would allow the character to use Paired Weapons Combat Style with Tiger Claw Martial Arts Style. 

In your example it would require 27 ranks in Martial Arts Strikes. I would make the rolls using the lesser of Paired Weapons Style or Tiger Claw Martial Arts Style.

Paired Weapons – This style is designed for characters who wish to use two identical weapons together (2 daggers, 2 short swords, etc.). The character must have a minimum number of ranks with the weapon equal to 1.5 times the number of ranks with this style, and this style must be learned separately for each set of paired weapons.

The weapon selected for this style must also be the primary weapon for that weapon group or be a weapon selected through the Multiple Weapon Proficiency Talent. When using this style, the character makes a single attack roll. If this attack does damage, the effects of the critical delivered are increased as follows:
Hits: Any Hits delivered are doubled.
Stuns: If a stun is delivered, increase the rounds of stun by 1.
Bleeding: If the target of the attack receives a bleeding wound, the bleeding is increased by 1 Hit per round.
Death in xx rounds: If the target receives a Death in xx rounds critical, the number of rounds is reduced by half (round up).
All other damage remains as detailed by the critical.
(Combat – St/Ag – Combat)

[GMLovlie]

I would think that the Dual Weapon Kata style would be more appropriate, and would have the same result. No?

I mean, and do correct me if I'm wrong because its been a while Tiger Claws require Martial Arts Strike or Sweeps and the Style, so basically two skills needs upkeep and improvement. Where the style is used as OB no matter what.

If using paired weapon, I would think that would need a weapon skill base rather than martial arts, although I'm not sure the rules actually differentiates between these. Still, a combat style requires you to use the lower of the two bonuses.

Dual Weapon kata simply builds upon weapon kata, and is dependant upon that as weapon kata is dependant upon martial arts strikes/sweeps.

[Thom @ ICE]

I often forget those additional MA styles in Martial Law.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Using that you would need to have 18 ranks in Dual Weapon, 18 ranks in Tiger Claws and 18 ranks in MA Strikes.   It would then resolve as 2 Dual Weapon Kata attacks (1 extra) but would give the benefits of the Tiger Claws strikes using MA Strikes criticals.

As I indicated, I had never seen that combination used before so I missed it... my error again.  Not my best answers this time... my apologies.

 

[Zut]

Hooo!!!... Great combo! I should try to remember it for a NPC!

[GMLovlie]

It's good, but it is still only 1 attack, with the paired weapon style effect, i.e. extra bleeding, double concussion hits, extra stuns and so on. Not 2 attacks. Look up martial law page 19.

This is slightly more expensive than the paired weapon combat style, as the paired weapon combat style only requires 1 other weapon skill at 1.5 times the skill ranks, whereas the dual weapon kata requires two other skills at equal or more ranks than the martial arts combat style. However this combo allows multiple attacks and targets as per monks attacks, so I guess that is fair trade off, even with the penalties for multiple targets and attacks.

[Thom @ ICE]

OK, you had me second guessing myself, but then I went back and checked it out... 

Newbie is trying to use two weapons, twice each.  Dual Weapon Kata counts as 1 attack with each hand and resolves with 1 attack roll. A second Dual Weapon Kata attack in the same round would cause both attacks be executed at -20.

He must have 18 ranks in the weapon in order to use the Dual Weapon Kata at 18 ranks.  He also must have 18 ranks in Tiger Claw style to gain those benefits.  That's a total of 54 ranks.

Paired weapons would be only 45 ranks (1 at 18 and 1 at 27) - but it wouldn't give the tiger claw style benefits.  Tiger Claw Style Benefits increase the damage size and works with monk attack benefits.

[GMLovlie]

Yes. Of course. I see now what you mean, I even mention monk attack abilities myself but forget the second attack. Duh!

Dual weapon kata is kind of more powerful than paired weapon fighting when you think of it. I mean, barring weapon restrictions... and for not that many more DPs really...

[Thom @ ICE]

Ah, the benefits of being a monk.... but keep in mind that the weapon size is limited (at least until you add a few other talents and end up with a Huge open-fisted attack).  That kind of reminds me of a few comic book series I collected years ago.  I may need to pull them out of storage and re-read them this weekend.  Lots of great use of Chi skills and Martial Arts styles with incredible results.